Mr. Kevin Kinsella:

I understand there were between 13,000 and 14,000 hill sheep farmers in the past. I hope those figures, which I have provided off the top of my head, are correct. I remember examining this matter when the sheep grassland payment was being introduced. If I recall correctly, there were approximately 700,000 hill ewes at the time. That figure may have fallen since then. I imagine that it would have. I have given some figures I recall from the past but I do not have the up-to-date situation. As Deputy Ó Cuív has said, the Minister would have those figures available to him.

I agree with the Deputy's second point. Our first position in the CAP reform was that we wanted to see a strong coupled payment for the sheep sector. We took that approach on the basis of our belief that the sector is vulnerable. We feel that the sector, like the regions in which it is based, needs strong support. That is why the IFA was strong in calling for a coupled support. That did not happen - the Minister chose not to go down that route. We would contrast that with what is happening at present in France and other places, where a coupled payment of approximately €20 per ewe is being considered. We feel that type of support is needed in this sector. The Minister has made it clear to us that he will not go down that route.

The Deputy's final point related to the conditions associated with the various schemes. From a farming perspective, schemes tend to have too many conditions. The proposal on the table right now involves abolishing the sheep grassland payment and moving it into the single farm payment. The Minister is claiming that for technical reasons, he cannot provide for a sheep grassland payment under the new single farm payment scheme if he is to stay within the regulations. He is saying he has to treat everyone the same way in terms of convergence. It is obvious that on the road to convergence, some people are coming up and some people are coming down. It is against that background we are seeking the support of this committee for our proposal that the funding which was available for the sheep grassland payment should be restored and made available to compensate sheep farmers - and the sheep sector as a whole - for the loss over time that will occur as a result of convergence. That is the case we are making to the committee.