Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The first question relates to whether I believe it was appropriate for the Garda Commissioner to ask the questions he asked. The Garda Commissioner also has an independent statutory function. He set out a series of questions in respect of what were obviously matters of concern to him. Subsequently, a meeting took place between the Garda Commissioner and the chairman of GSOC. I am not - any more than the members of the committee - privy to the conversation that took place between them. It seems that is where matters rest. Quite clearly the Garda Commissioner had concerns that the press release GSOC issues was open to misinterpretation. Again, in fairness, Commissioner Kieran FitzGerald of GSOC addressed those issues on the "Prime Time" programme. If anything confirms that they are open to misinterpretation is that for the past nine days there have been suggestions - despite GSOC's conclusions - that the Garda was surveying GSOC's offices. GSOC has stated there was no evidence of Garda misconduct but the issue keeps coming back. It is clear the Garda Commissioner had concerns. Commissioner Kieran FitzGerald tried to address those concerns, very articulately, on "Prime Time". The matter was then revisited before this committee and the waters became somewhat muddied as a result of the manner in which some issues were addressed.

Deputy Wallace, as he is entitled to do, is still raising the same issue. In the context of the Commissioner's questions, it seems to me the Commissioner has said no more about it. I can only assume that in the conversation that took place between himself and Simon O'Brien that issues of concern were addressed. It is important that both individuals, as leaders of the separate bodies, have some area of discretion and engagement that does not involve interference by me as Minister. What happened happened and I cannot add to that.
The Deputy asked if I can confirm whether I share the Commissioner's confidence that there were no rogue elements of gardaí involved in the surveillance of GSOC's offices. I do not know how many times this has come around in a circle. I would come back yet again to what commissioner Kieran FitzGerald said on "Prime Time". He said they were the people investigated, they found nothing, they did not find either rogue elements of An Garda Síochána or anyone else in An Garda Síochána engaging in surveillance in their offices. That was GSOC's conclusion, not the Commissioner's conclusion. The Commissioner then made the statement he made. It seems that both bodies are ad idemon that issue but it keeps on coming up. All I can hope is that, in fairness to both bodies and in the interests of ensuring there is public confidence in both bodies, any remaining doubts about these matters, or if there are issues out there that no one has addressed, would be identified by the High Court judge.
Deputy Wallace and I do not agree frequently on some things but I absolutely agree with him that it is of huge importance that GSOC does its work. Of course I read the Kieran Boylan report and of course I had concerns and I think I must have answered questions on this in the Dáil. Deputy Mac Lochlainn probably put questions to me on this issue in the Dáil and, I am sure, Deputy Niall Collins, who is not with us, asked me questions on this issue in the Dáil. A number of things arise and I do not want to get into the detail of that report. One of the responses the Commissioner would have given was that there was more than 50,000 documents, from memory, that GSOC obtained during the course of that investigation and that created enormous administrative issues within An Garda Síochána, but GSOC complained that matters had not been dealt with promptly, that it took too long for responses and too long for information to come to it. That is, as I said right at the start at a very early stage, why I had a meeting, following the publication of that report, with the Commissioner and Simon O'Brien. My recollection is that we met on more than one occasion around these issues, but I am open to correction on that. It resulted in new protocols being put in place - which were signed off on in September last - which were designed to ensure that within discrete periods of time information sought by GSOC is provided to An Garda Sióchána. Also, I put in place a troubleshooting mechanism, which did not previously exist, to provide that should GSOC say it is having difficulties or should there be a suggestion that An Garda Síochána is not responding when it should, that both a representative of GSOC and a representative of the Garda Síochána would meet, under the chairmanship of an official in my Department, and any issues that had caused difficulties would be fully voiced and it would be ensured they were addressed. However, adding to all of this, as the Deputy knows, there are suggestions that there should be various amendments to the legislation relating to GSOC. We have been working on that within my Department and have been looking at it for some time. That is why last Monday fortnight before all this started, we announced that I would bring proposals to Cabinet. I will not now bring them to Cabinet until the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality Committee has completed its deliberations. If it comes up with proposals that may be additional to matters we are going to address, we can consider them for incorporation into the submissions to Cabinet. The idea is to strengthen GSOC's position but also it is important that it operates in a manner that ensures there is public confidence in it and that there is absolute integrity to its information systems. It is important to note that once the judge has reported it may be the case that something will emerge from his report that would influence also any legal changes that maybe required.