Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Yes. May I stick to the issue of outsourcing? From what the Minister has said, and the fact that he is upskilling public service managers in the execution of outsourcing, I take it he sees this very much as a trend that will perhaps intensify within the public service. While human beings are equal and I entirely agree with the Minister that each worker should be equal to another, I think he will appreciate that that is not in fact the case. That is because some workers find themselves in secure employment, while others do not.

What plans does the Minister have for the employment arrangements and status of work that is outsourced? He will be familiar with all sorts of phenomena. Even some section 39 organisations have used zero-hour contracts, but I do not believe the State should be underwriting that in any shape or form. I am not raising that concern from a Luddite anti-efficiency position, but with a view to the workers in that sector and also the quality of service being delivered. I note that the Minister has referenced savings on agency workers within the health sector. He might enlighten us on the scale of those savings so far.

It seems to me that there are two things at odds with each other. On the one hand, there is an impulse to outsource and on the other a recognition that in the case of the health service the use of agency workers is massively expensive. The Minister might enlighten us on that.