Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank both Ministers for their contributions so far today. I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue. It is no secret that we need to ask many questions about the transfer of duties from the local authorities to Irish Water. If it were not for events of the past few weeks, much information may well have been absent here today. However, there are a few items that need to be clarified before we proceed even to this year's programme. I am conscious of a comment made by the Minister, Deputy Hogan, last week that this committee would have discussed the costs associated with the setting up of Irish Water in November 2012, further to his having received approval from the Cabinet of €180 million for set-up costs. As the €180 million to which he referred was raised as a commercial loan from the National Pensions Reserve Fund, can he confirm that there is no way it was discussed at this committee in 2012 with regard to the spend in 2013? Furthermore, can he confirm what the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, said in the Dáil on Wednesday when he stated this point and, more to the point, said that any parliamentary questions from Members of the Dáil on behalf of taxpayers relating to that spend and how it is being carried out would not be answered because that information was judged to commercially sensitive? That was in contradiction to what the Taoiseach has said earlier about how Irish Water is a public utility in public ownership and that all questions asked in the form of parliamentary questions would be answered. If that is the case, is it the position that neither I nor anybody else is entitled to ask questions about information relating to costs associated with consultants such as IBM, Accenture or Ernst & Young, to name a few, and that in receiving answers to those questions we are at the mercy of Irish Water, which is not yet subject to freedom of information legislation or the oversight of the Comptroller and Auditor General, and is only obliged by virtue of the legislation that was guillotined before Christmas to come before this committee once a year, when we are at its behest as to when it specifically wishes to answer questions? I inform the committee that the Secretary General of the Department thankfully contacted me last night to apologise on her Department's behalf for not answering questions from me and others in the past pertaining to this matter. I accept that apology and her commitment to discuss with Irish Water a mechanism by which information may flow - I emphasise the words "may flow" - in the future. I await the Minister's comments in that regard.

As I mentioned in the debate on a motion we had before House last week, I asked the Minister on 13 November 2012 about the specific costs associated with the setting up of Irish Water. I asked how much he had committed towards Irish Water for next year - that would have been for 2013. While the Minister has argued that it was in the context of water metering, which is fine, he came back and said a provision of €10 million had been provided for the establishment of the structure of Irish Water in 2013. He said that legislation to set up Irish Water on an interim basis would be introduced pending full implementation in 2013. We have since had that legislation. He said the cost of metering would be paid out of a loan from the National Pensions Reserve Fund - we were always aware of that, so there was nothing new there - and that it would not be included in the Department's Estimates, as metering would be rolled out over a number of years, but he never mentioned the specific set-up costs. In his response to my statement last week he said that he provided a breakdown of the €10 million, part of which was €2.7 million towards administration and set-up costs. A good deal of explanation is required to clear up what the Minister has said. I left Dublin last Tuesday night wondering what the situation was, having been told it was my responsibility for not having raised this issue in the normal fashion, the Minister having gained approval from the Cabinet prior to that, but we now know that he did not gain approval from the Cabinet in the normal fashion. It was the economic council that designed the funding in such a way that it would be a loan, and that only copperfastens the accusations that have been made in regard to the overall secrecy that has surrounded this whole debacle since then. That is my point regarding what has happened so far following the chief executive officer's admission on the national airwaves about the costs associated with Irish Water, the consultancy fees of €50 million that had been spent up to then, and the €85 million being provided in the overall scheme of things.

To return to the Minister's presentation today, he said that €240 million would be provided from the Exchequer towards Irish Water. Is that in respect of new capital projects or ones carrying over from last year? How much in total was spent last year by local authorities on capital projects relating to water programmes? How much is proposed to be spent this year either in respect of projects carrying over from last year for which approval has been given by the Exchequer, or in respect of commitments that may have been given to the Minister on foot of representations from local authorities for this year coming?

The Minister said that Irish Water would cover €730 million of the operational costs next year. What is the source of the €730 million? I expect part of it is derived from the collection of commercial water rates, to the tune of €200 million, but from where does the balance come? Perhaps it is quite obvious, but it is not very obvious to me when I read what is before us today. The Minister said that €486 million from the Local Government Fund was also being given to Irish water. The amount of €730 million is in addition to the €486 million that the Minister, according to his statement here, is providing towards operational costs. That indicates that there is an operational cost of €1.216 billion in total next year. I think the amount was substantially less last year because the €1.2 billion that we have all been quoting with respect to the operational costs in a given year is inclusive of capital spending in that area also.

Where is the €400 million that was taken from local property tax revenues that had initially been committed to local authorities that have found they are not able to strike budgets, that find it very difficult to provide the services and facilities they had intended to provide and that had considered this funding a windfall? The Minister took that from them at the back end of last year. Where is it to be spent now? Is that not also gone to Irish Water?

The Minster said there would be an emphasis on water conservation. How specifically will that manifest itself? Will it be by the local authorities or by Irish water?