Mr. Graham Butler:

The reason I was so quick off the mark is that much of the research was ready as I was doing research in any case. The review came at the right time.

On the role of Seanad Éireann in scrutinising the European Union, I strongly concur with Deputy Durkan's comments on the role of a second chamber. I am not sure, however, if the correct approach would be for one committee to take responsibility for all oversight. I agree that scrutiny at parliamentary level, whether by one committee or all the sectoral committees, must be independent of government. This function has expanded considerably. A protocol attached to the Lisbon treaty dealt specifically with national parliaments. The practice of issuing communications seeking an input from national parliaments through their early warning mechanisms is a very good way of having political dialogue with the European Union. Committees that are independent of government can make a substantial contribution by submitting its thoughts about how a particular proposal should proceed.

Deputy Crowe referred to the European Parliament committee on foreign affairs. None of our 12 MEPs are on that committee in the parliamentary term from 2009 until 2014. As there are 22 sectoral committees of the Parliament, it is impossible for 12 Irish MEPs to cover them all. That three Irish MEPs sit on the agriculture committee is indicative of where the interests of Ireland lie in Europe. Elections to the European Parliament are imminent and I will not say that no Irish MEP will sit on the foreign affairs committee in the 2014 to 2019 term, notwithstanding the decline in the number of Irish MEPs from 12 to 11. I would love to see one MEP on the committee but it is not certain that will be the case. The manner in which this committee would engage with any Irish MEP appointed to it could be quite interesting. Members of this committee should have some idea of the type of working relationship they would have with an Irish MEP on the European Parliament's foreign affairs committee.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan asked a question on the human rights element of trade missions. I listened very carefully to the comments made yesterday by the former Secretary General of the Department and I agree with him to some extent. From my examination of Ireland's engagement at the General Assembly in New York, I found that while we have a strong record on human rights in terms of reforming international institutions, we also know that this is not the most effective way to achieve results. The UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, which has only been in operation for a few years, is already experiencing major problems as a result of the voting blocs on the council. Some of its members do not have a great human rights record. I am not making charges against any particular state because the problem is global. The European Union has a seat as an observer at the UN General Assembly and each or the 28 member states is also a member of the UN. There are 192 or 193 UN members, which means EU member states are in a small minority in the world order. The existence of a forum to deal with human rights issues does not necessarily mean that a Minister visiting a country with a poor human rights record must raise human rights issues on every single occasion. However, countries must be made aware of Ireland's position on some matters.

Senator Norris stated Iveagh House did not like the idea of a joint committee being established. Foreign policy is traditionally conducted behind closed doors. An argument is made that foreign policy is about deal making and should not have a public light shone on it. While this may have been the case previously, it is no longer acceptable either nationally or internationally. The communications revolution has made all information more accessible. It is also empowering citizens to find out more about parliamentarians, governments and foreign policy.

I am pleased the joint committee takes such an interest in foreign affairs.

Deputy Byrne mentioned the conference on Common Foreign Security Policy, CFSP and the Common Defence and Security Policy. That conference is separate from COSAC. COSAC comes under the European Affairs Committee. This new conference happens with the Presidency. I presume the Chairman will be going to Greece soon for the next conference on CFSP and CDSP. The committees tend to send a great many people. With 28 member states each sending three or four delegates to these conferences one will have roughly 150 people which is equivalent almost to the size of the Dáil. It is a good way for parliamentarians to engage with each other on these issues, but it is impossible for these people when they come together in an once-off forum every six months to engage in proper oversight of the High Representative, Ms Catherine Ashton when she is accountable to the Commission, the Council and the European Parliament itself. The European Parliament would be more of a correct forum for proper oversight of her role.

Returning to the point on the European External Action Service, there are ways for Ireland to engage with the European External Action Service. I think there are seven Irish diplomats coming down on secondment to the European External Action Service, but that is less than 3% of the total make-up of the European External Action Service. The European External Action Service, EEAS, got off to a rocky start, as Deputy Smith pointed out, although it is developing. We now have EU delegations across the world and in some places, as Professor Tonra mentioned yesterday, that when the EEAS was set up there were great ideas that they would share premises with some member states with EU embassies in which all the different cultures would have their operations. That has not happened. EU embassies might flourish with the next treaty into the future, but we do not know what will happen yet. Although it is still a developing organisation, there is some institutional conflict between the role of the European External Action Service, EEAS, in foreign policy and the office of the permanent president of the European Council which have split competencies in foreign policy. Of course, that will probably change in the future but again we do not know.

A number of members mentioned the quotation from Mr. O'Halpin, which I used in my paper. I double-checked the reference, the quote I used was from 1996 in which Mr. O'Halpin was providing an historical context to the role of the Oireachtas as opposed to the-----