Mr. Tony O'Brien:

There may have been discussions in which someone said "I'd be supportive of that," which may in fact have been "Send me a business case," but there would never have been any expectation - legitimate expectation - by either party that a conversation such as that could amount to formal approval. Some of these are serious entities of serious scale. Some of them are established by the State and would have provisions in their establishment orders which make it clear that salaries are to be determined by the Minister for Health with the consent of the Minister for Finance given at the time. Others, though not established on that basis, would be of sufficient scale that I think it is unreasonable that they would expect to do business with the State on that basis. Notwithstanding the fact that in the 1990s there was perhaps something of a nod-and-wink culture, no one could, I think, legitimately claim that a conversation with an assistant principal or a principal officer could constitute formal approval.

They would have at least expected to have it documented in writing in my view.