Mr. John Bryan:

I will continue from where Mr. Doyle finished. We have put a lot of effort into the UK, meeting representatives of Irish Ferries and P&O over recent months. There is a higher concern, rather than awareness, of live exports in England. We have a very steady trade of more than 300,000 animals, with some going to the UK and many going to Northern Ireland. A substantial number of those animals go to Europe. The Chairman referred to the African trade, which is much better regulated. Quinn International had three boats of animals for export earlier this year, and not one animal leaves the port until the cheque is lodged. There is a simple policy as the ship stays in the port until the money is received. The company is dealing with a state agency but the ship does not leave until the cheque is lodged, as otherwise the guarantee of payment is dodgy.

The UK is our nearest market and I have met representatives of Tesco, Sainsbury's and Asda. The representatives of Tesco told me if I rocked the boat in advocating Irish beef, it would purchase less than the €300 million of Irish beef it purports to buy. Our biggest single customer told us it did not want Irish cattle going to England to be slaughtered as it upset the National Farmers Union. It is a delicate balance. Deputy Naughten asked the very good question of what we can do. The visit of Queen Elizabeth II to Ireland last year was very helpful, as is the Irish President's upcoming visit to Britain. The closer the two countries get, the better the amalgamation of market. We will be able to get Tesco to be happy to put an Irish flag on beef packaging, as today it wants to put the Union Jack or the red tractor on such products for a premium price. Collectively, we must achieve a better relationship through closer ties.

There are four impediments to this, with the first being labelling legislation. There is also shipping, and Deputy Ó Cuív has highlighted this issue on several occasions. I am amazed when I meet representatives of P&O and Irish Ferries because they ask who will indemnify the service if there is a protest at the destination. That does not happen on this side. The UK would love to have a live export trade but it cannot have it because of the fear of animal rights lobbies, which are stronger in the UK than they are in this country. Retailers are the biggest impediment, and last of all are the colleague farming organisations, which have on a couple of occasions lately gone to retailers to throw Irish cheddar and beef on the ground. Colleagues in France were protesting about Irish cheddar and beef in McDonald's. There is always a delicate balance between maximum market access and not getting a reaction that causes damage.

The Deputy summed up the concerns of farmers very clearly, especially the viability of individual farmers. I met a farmer from Monaghan who is owed €45,000 and one from Limerick who is owed €25,000. The cattle in question were called a few days before the receiver went in and collected from the farm. There are mart managers who spent five and six weeks telephoning the directors of TLT International. They would not answer the calls because they had cancelled cheques. There is a serious concern about this. I am a director of a mart and as a director of any business, as Deputy Barry knows, one has a responsibility to ensure anything that is purchased is paid for. No mart director should allow a mart trade unless he or she is 100% sure the cattle will be paid for. I have made that clear to the directors of TLT International, which has a clear responsibility. They purchased cattle when they knew they had massive debts of €10 million and assets of only perhaps €4 million, and some of them difficult to collect in Italy.

Deputy Ó Cuív asked the simple question of how the farmers will get paid. We need goodwill from the receiver and debtors in Italy, as well as a certain amount from TLT International. At the meeting with representatives of the company, we were told it did not own the yard or trucks and was unwilling to put any money into the process. It is unacceptable for people who purchased cattle to argue they own nothing and add nothing to the party. The directors have a responsibility to put in money to pay farmers owed money. Another shipper called Seamus Purcell was in a similar position and he sold a farm to pay the farmers. When Sallyview Estates, a company related to TLT, went broke, it had no corporate responsibility but it paid the farmers affected. It will be difficult but I spent four years to get that money for farmers. The receiver did not get paid and, unfortunately, the Revenue Commissioners did not get paid, but the farmers were paid. There is an opportunity that can be based on goodwill, as the company will not trade again unless farmers are paid. It is a fact that if a company wants to do business in Ireland, it must pay for the stock or not do business at all.