Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Cuirim failte roimh na toscairí. Tá a fhios agam nach bhfuil cead agam imeacht ón téama, ach ba mhaith liom a rá gur thug an Coimisinéir Teanga moladh don fhórsa mar gheall ar an mbealach ina bhfuil sé ag dul i ngleic le Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla nuair a bhí sé i láthair ag an gcoiste seo le déanaí. The Language Commissioner also appears before this committee and he has praised the Garda Síochána on its changes with regard to the implementation of the Official Languages Act. I compliment the Garda Síochána on the positive way it has engaged with him.

During the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission presentation here there was a palpable sense of frustration on the part of its representatives. We are basing it on the evidence we heard from them and from the witnesses present now. The two testimonies are poles apart. Perhaps there has been significant bridge building in the interim. It is important to go back to some of the evidence representatives of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission gave to us. They were very careful and judicious in the wording they chose here. I will go into some depth on the issues raised.

Mr. Simon O'Brien cited that requests from the Garda Síochána for information necessary to advance investigations were not being completed within a timeframe of 30 days agreed in protocols under the Garda Síochána Act 2005 and in one case it waited 542 days for a request to be completed. I know the Commissioner has said that there are new protocols. What are the new protocols? Do the new protocols reflect the 30 days specified in the Garda Síochána Act?

In talking about the difficulties between the Garda Síochána and the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, he also stated:

We had hoped, however, that by the time of publishing our 2012 annual report this spring we could have put any comments on these issues in the past tense. Alas, when that date approached, there were still problems.

It indicated to us that even though the CHIS system has been in places since to 2006, the issues the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission witnesses related to us were current issues and there were still problems in the interim. They relate to the keeping of data, files, etc.

Ms Carmel Foley stated:

We remain concerned however that, as a result of Garda Síochána delays in completing these investigations, at any given time there is a caseload of about 500 complaint files of a disciplinary nature awaiting completion ... We are very conscious that these delays place unnecessary strain on complainants and on the Garda members concerned

That was current in July.

Mr. Kieran FitzGerald in talking about the report laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas stated:

We submitted the report because our findings in an investigation conducted in the public interest led us to have serious concerns regarding the implementation and management of informant handling procedures, both historic and current.

I am pointing out that they told us these issues are current and not all historical. He told the committee, "What we found led us to conclude that there were serious deficiencies in the Garda Síochána management procedures regarding informant handling practices". It is important to say they are using the language "what we found".
I understand that Mr. Simon O'Brien comes from a policing background and the work the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission does is on the principles of policing. I cannot imagine they made any of these statements in a light fashion. If they said that is what they found, there must have been something to back that up. I am concerned that they found serious deficiencies and that they would have evidence that they obviously could not share with us because of the confidential nature of what they were investigating.

Mr. FitzGerald also stated:

We found poor record keeping and non-adherence to procedures. We found deficiencies in the implementation and management of the old system, which was replaced, following strong words from the Morris tribunal, by the current system, known as covert human intelligence sources, CHIS. What we found led us to believe that not all the deficiencies identified by the Morris tribunal were remedied.

Mr. FitzGerald said that in July. Is the Commissioner aware of the concerns? What elements of the recommendations of the Morris tribunal still need to be remedied? Have they been remedied since July?

Mr. FitzGerald recognised that the CHIS system was in place but pointed out that "the oversight operated by Mr. Justice Smyth is not designed to address the possibility that informants might be run outside of the formal system". He continued: "We are unaware of oversight that might monitor this." I appreciate that the Commissioner has said that it is not the policy and he does not expect it is happening. However, Mr. FitzGerald asked whether the Garda has a system in place that can categorically allow the Commissioner to be absolutely certain. The ombudsman commission believes there should be a system in place. Has the ombudsman commission discussed the matter with the Commissioner? Mr. FitzGerald stated: "Another major concern relates to the use of informants who may be participating in criminal activity about which they are providing information." I appreciate the Commissioner has said to the committee that this is not the case and I take him at his word.

The ombudsman commission recommended "that formal procedures be put in place to govern and guide the deployment and management of such informants, the extent to which gardaí should interact with the Director of Public Prosecutions in regard to such informants, including what information gardaí should bring to the DPP's attention and, in light of our findings of poor record-keeping, how such interactions should be recorded and filed". This suggests that the ombudsman commission is not pointing to policing activity but to the record-keeping and management of the information gathered during the process.

Why does the Commissioner believe the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission is not confident that there are no off-the-books informants? I appreciate the Commissioner has told us there are none, but the ombudsman commission does not appear to be confident that it could not happen. How does the Commissioner know? What procedures are in place? Has the Commissioner found out whether members of the Garda Síochána have been acting with informants off the books? Has this come up? Has the Commissioner been in a position where he has had to discipline members for not following the procedures?

The sense was that there was a major lack of co-operation between the Garda and the ombudsman commission. Why does the ombudsman commission perceive that the Garda was not co-operating? Certainly, that was the sense we got when the ombudsman commission gave testimony to the committee. The sense was that there was little co-operation. Why is that so? Why did the ombudsman commission perceive it that way?

Will the Commissioner give us a little more information on the new agreed timelines on information? It appears to me that the statute of 2005 refers to 30 days. Will the Commissioner explain that a little more? The Commissioner mentioned the cost of co-operation was 45,000 man hours and €1.3 million. That seems like a great deal of time and money. Is the level of complaints in line with international best practice? Is it common to other police forces or do we have an exorbitant number of complaints? If there are a vast number of complaints, is the Commissioner concerned that so many complaints are being made to the ombudsman commission about the service An Garda Síochána provides?

There is another issue relating to the relevance and passing of information. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission appears to have similar policing powers to the Garda. Given the background of Simon O'Brien in police forces, is there a lack of trust? The Commissioner said it took time to hand over information because of its sensitivity. Is there is a fundamental lack of trust between the Garda and the ombudsman commission on these policing issues? Is the Garda not utterly confident in the ombudsman commission to be able to hand over information? The ombudsman commission has the powers to seek that information. One would expect the ombudsman commission to treat whatever information it had with the utmost confidence. Why, therefore, is the trust not there between the Garda and the ombudsman commission?