John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am trying to tease out these problems because that is what the HSE said to us when it appeared before us. The HSE said what the Secretary General has just said but what is happening in the hospitals with the consultants is completely at odds with that. They are just continuing on as if the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform does not exist. I am sure the Secretary General does not like that. What concrete action is being taken to ensure that the HSE and its consultants turn in the right money for the State and adhere to their contracts? It has gone beyond the point of discussion.

Those who owe small amounts of money to hospitals are chased by debt collectors. That is what happens to the ordinary citizen. On the other hand, within the HSE, on this particular issue, nothing happens. Someone must be penalised and someone must be answerable. The same applies to every other loss.

In his opening remarks, the Secretary General referred to various Comptroller and Auditor General reports highlighting loss of money, inefficiencies, systems breakdowns and so forth. Can he point to the demotion of any group, individual or Secretary General on foot of such reports? Has anyone lost his or her job because of all of this money going to waste? That is the source of my frustration.

At previous meetings of this committee and the HSE, time and time again, going back as far as 2002, we have heard about the systems within the HSE that do not connect to each other, particularly the financial systems. The budget for the HSE is constantly on the wrong side of the line. I am heartened to hear from the Secretary General this morning that it is on the right side of the line at present. However, we will see what the outturn will be at the end of the year. On 25 April 2013, the HSE made the point to this committee and at previous meetings that it has difficulties with the legacy systems in place and real problems in terms of controlling the finances of the executive for that reason. The HSE further stated that it had applied to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to update the system in order to make it fit for purpose, in the context of controlling expenditure. Can the Secretary General tell us the status of that application.