Mr. John Bryan:

Senator O'Neill asked a pertinent question. The Department carried out an analysis that has shown that the people with a single farm payment greater than the average, which is above €250, have double the stocking rate of the people today. We have the reference figure from 2000 to 2002 but if one superimposes the map on today, the people who have the higher payments still have double the average stocking rate. In respect of the people who tended to have the stock - and it pertains to most people's parishes - very little changes and people tend to have the same sheep, get rid of a few sheep and get a few sucklers. We made the point that Teagasc did not give great advice when it told all those men to get into sheep a few years' ago. It was not good because they busted their way in and busted their way out again. As Professor Renwick says, there is a link to the economy in respect of output. If they have double the output, they are making a greater contribution to the economy.

This is where I totally disagree with Deputy Ó Cuív. REPS, the disadvantaged areas scheme, the suckler cow scheme and the single farm payment are all income. It is the gross income - output of one's stock whether it is sheep, sucklers or dairy - that is the issue. The farmer adds it all together. He does not divide it up and put it into different pockets. When REPS was closed own, it put huge pressure on people. There have been cuts to the disadvantaged areas scheme and the suckler welfare scheme. There are men killing cows. Our Kerry chairman said at the last council that he knows of lads loading two cows into a box to bring them to the market not because they have decided they are not profitable but because they cannot pay their debts. It is a simple matter of paying their debts which is why the combination of REPS, AOS or disadvantaged areas all add to farm income. That must be borne in mind, which is why we are so strongly supportive of the need for 50-50 co-finance. If the farmer can afford to feed his family, he will still keep the cows. It might be a joke but it is the reality. Half of the people I am looking at here have stock at home, including the Chairman. They will not get rid of that stock unless they have to so from that perspective, it is a combination of income. If a lad is already milking 60 or 70 cows, he has invested in the milking parlour over a period of years. If he is milking 60 or 70 and wants to go to 100, he will have no bother getting the finance but to move from a green field with 30 or 40 sucklers, one is probably talking about €100,000 for a milking parlour, so that it is a lot of money in any man's figures.

There will be conversions but not every farmer will convert, be they in Kilkenny, Carlow or Leitrim. Some people will not be able to get the money while age will be a factor with others. For others, it is a matter of lifestyle. Certainly, there will be an increase in production which is why we are saying it is so important to do everything we can to make the suckler herd and sheep flock more profitable because many farmers will continue and it is good for the economy. We can carry out breed improvement and improve animal welfare where there can be an effect greater than what is put in. The reality is that if 9 billion people on the planet have to be fed, food prices must rise.

As Senator O'Neill probably knows, extensification of farming was one of the reasons I got out of sheep. I was losing more than I was getting in premium payments. I had forgotten that.