Mr. A. J. Noonan:

With regard to Deputy Ó Snodaigh's point, it is not necessarily that we want to reduce basic social welfare payments. We want those payments to go to those who need them. Many of our former members are now on social welfare payments. The Small Firms Association is, therefore, very cognisant of both its customers and its members in the context of the troubles they may be experiencing. The social welfare system is not very favourable to those who lose their companies. The latter do not automatically qualify for social welfare payments. That is a fact which should be taken into consideration. Some €20.3 billion is spent on social welfare annually. The point was made about savings and what we are calling for. We are calling for very simple things. We do not want any more taxation. If there is more taxation, we will be obliged to let people go and they will have to join the social welfare system. I made the point - I do not know whether Deputy Higgins accepts it - that there are 4% of people in the system at present who cannot afford to leave it. That is a shocking statistic. Those people may want to go to work but they cannot afford to leave the system. We are saying that they should be given the opportunity and the dignity of being allowed to work. That is our simple point.