James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Let me give the full answer and I will work my way back to Deputy Seán Conlon's question because he has raised a very important point.

What I surmised from Deputy Denis Naughten's question was that in the absence of any underlying psychiatric illness - this would take some time to assess and ascertain - and the risk of suicide was serious - it was real and substantial - and the only way to avert that risk was by a termination of pregnancy, a termination of pregnancy would take place.

Deputy Seán Conlan talked about the right to impose or instigate treatments, but that does not arise. A failure to certify will arise where the certifier cannot satisfy himself or herself that other modalities would not help to avert the risk and because the woman refuses to co-operate, although there is no underlying psychiatric illness and, therefore, no issue as to her capacity to give informed consent. If we have a perfectly sane person, with perfectly good compos mentis ability to give informed consent, who refuses to give consent to treatment or co-operate with treatments that could address the issue, the Bill is quite clear - the certifier cannot certify because he or she has not been able to say with absolute authority that it is the only way to avert the risk to the woman's life.

I will come back to Deputy Michelle Mulherin's point.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív talked about the HSE being the authority, and he should know. However, the problem is that the HSE is a composite of a load of different professionals and individuals. The reality is that there is a lack of clarity in the law and they are as afflicted by this lack of clarity as anybody else.

Deputy Róisín Shortall raised the issue of termination of pregnancy versus the right to life of the unborn. I am glad that she has raised that issue because it gives me an opportunity to clarify what I am saying. Under the Bill, a woman has a right to a termination of pregnancy if that is the only treatment that can avert the real and substantial risk to her life. It does not confer a right on her or anybody else to destroy the life of the unborn as an entity in itself. If that happens as a consequence of the gestational period involved, it is obviously going to be the outcome. However, if the pregnancy is 30 weeks in gestation, there is absolutely no right for the woman to seek the destruction of the child - none.

Deputy Róisín Shortall also talked about the legal and ethical considerations. They will continue to apply and will change and modified under the best practice guidelines from the various institutes and colleges. They will also be adjudicated on and agreed to by the Medical Council. The Deputy has said one cannot prove whether someone is suicidal and she is absolutely right. In fairness, it is very difficult to do so with absolute authority. It is a clinical decision, but what one can do as a psychiatrist and what he or she is being asked to do in the Bill is to assess the risk to the woman's life. Is it real and substantial? That being the case, is a termination the only thing that will avert the risk? I reiterate that no one has a right to destroy the baby but only to terminate the pregnancy if it is to save the woman's life and the only treatment available to save her life.