Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour) | Oireachtas source

Unfortunately, I must leave to attend another committee meeting. I have no option but to do so as it is a select committee. I will throw a few grenades and run, if that is okay. I thank the delegation for the presentations and I am interested in some of the comments made that half the Protestant primary schools in the country could be closed. There was also a question of values and a suggestion that Ireland is a rural country, as well as the issue of competition between schools and the percentage of schools in deficit.

I am coming to this partly as a politician but also as somebody who used to be principal of a small school, although it was not in rural Ireland. There are different perspectives in this regard, including the perspective and individual ethos of the small school and what is being achieved for the children under care. One can consider the pressures we see in this committee, with people from the likes of the fee-paying sector coming here asking for more resources or trying to state their case in that regard. Teachers are also keen to maintain pay and pensions, which is their right, and the issue of class sizes is also a common theme across the education sector at primary, secondary and third level. Most recently we had the issue of special needs etc., so there is much pressure on the education system.

When I was made principal of a school, the best bit of advice I got was to dig deep into every decision and ensure it is rooted in what is best for the child. If a decision must be made that is sometimes unpopular or unpalatable, if teachers or parents do not like it or if the board of management needs convincing, one will always win out or have a better chance of winning if the decision is good for the child. We have already heard accusations of anti-rural agendas or that this report has an impact on one faith over another. Fundamentally, across the political sphere we are trying to provide an education system at primary and second level that benefits children most.

The committee visited Finland recently, which was fascinating as every child goes to a school in a particular district. We met with a conservative member of Parliament who is the chair of the education committee there and she gave us a friendly lecture about the importance of equality in the education system. The conservative Members of Parliament in Finland are far to the left of anything we have here in Ireland, as we noted when she spoke of the importance of equality.

What is the value system here? It is of choice, with a matrix of 3,500 primary schools around the country, all of which must be maintained, built and restructured by the Department of Education and Skills. They must be staffed, lit, heated and insured. These are schools in an urban and rural setting. With regard to the schools in my constituency I sometimes ask where is the educational research indicating that girls' and boys' schools should be separate or that infant and senior schools should be separate, even when they are on the same campus. Why does this make sense? There is always a vested interest arguing that girls' or infant education is more important, for example, or that the small school around the corner should not be touched. Ultimately, a slightly bigger school with more students will have resources feeding into it, and it is much more sustainable to have a number of schools - either in an urban or rural setting - that are easier to finance and much more sustainable in the long term, with greater numbers of staff and students in classrooms. A greater number of educational resources can flow as a result.

The biggest expense in the education system that should be questioned is not special needs, class sizes, teacher numbers or remuneration but rather our insistence on maintaining this matrix of primary and secondary schools across the State based on different patronages. I know this is an uncomfortable conversation for people and the delegation will not agree with my comments. I am thankful that as soon as I finish my contribution I will have to run. Nevertheless, there must be a question over the fact that we have, as a State, outsourced education to patron bodies, with the primary ethos in our education system a religious one. Over 90% of our schools have religious patronage, which may decide that it is right for parents to send their children to school given a certain religious background, etc. This means that the State, in underpinning that right, must spend more money on maintaining structure. In different rural or urban parishes, there will be a different matrix of primary schools that must maintain an identity.

It is not a simple issue and I wish we could have a palace of a primary school in every parish across the nation, with a magnificent building and staff, along with fantastic resources. Something must give, so what should the education system or the Department do? It should not give in on class sizes, special needs or any other issues related to children. Should it give in on having greater centres of excellence in a wider geographical area, which every child could attend and which would have the best of educational supports? That vision may have to be provided by the educational system. Unfortunately, part of the problem in this regard is that we may be representing measures that do not show a wider vision of what we could provide.

After throwing these issues into the mix, I thank the delegation for the contributions. I appreciate the conversation. There was mention of the back-to-school report and I look forward to the response of the delegation to it.