Alex White (Dublin South, Labour) | Oireachtas source

Even though what has been suggested here is not a lawyer but an advocate - I think Deputy Ó Cuív touched on this earlier when he mentioned a medical advocate or an advocate of some kind, rather than a lawyer, which is fair enough - it is still importing an adversarial approach into the clinical environment we are talking about.

Our legal system is adversarial. In order for people's rights to be vindicated, or if two people are in conflict, each side is entitled to be represented and the two sides cross-examine each other and do all those things that happen in court. That is how people's rights are vindicated and, ultimately, somebody makes a decision. However, we are talking here about a clinical environment. Even though the amendment does not propose a legal person, although it refers to the Attorney General, it mentions "[a]n advocate". In fact, it does not say the advocate is not a lawyer. I assume the Deputy did not intend the advocate to be a lawyer, but it does not actually state that he or she would not be a lawyer. In fact, on second thoughts, I believe it probably would be a lawyer under Deputy Kelleher's formulation, but not under Deputy Creed's. I think that would be all the more inappropriate and wrong.

What would this person do? I am very taken by Deputy Ó Caoláin's point, not necessarily for the reason he raised it but for another reason. In this whole process we are trying to maintain the balance all the time as best we can, and the calibration of rights is maintained as best we can in each stage through protection of the life of the unborn and the equal right to life of the mother. We are trying to maintain this all the time, meticulously, every time we go at it, in every section, every bit and every event that occurs. That is what we are trying to do. If one adds into the equation an advocate for the unborn, it necessarily has implications for how one is going to apply that scenario to the mother. I believe it does upset the balance of the Bill, which is a very delicate balance in many ways.

It is not clear what the advocate would do. The fact that the Attorney General is appointing him or her seems to suggest that it would be a lawyer, and, quite frankly, I do not know what he or she would do. This might sound a bit odd, but if one appoints a lawyer in a situation, how can he or she not cross-examine? That is how our system works. If somebody does not accept what the other side is saying, under our system they are entitled to ask them how do you say this or why do you say that, and say surely this or surely that. The whole system works in this way.

I will return to what the Minister has said, which I think is absolutely right. We are internalising, if the Deputy would like to use that word. The doctors and the review panel here are internalising within themselves the necessity to look after the rights of both parties. It is not that we are saying that over in this corner will be somebody advocating for this and in another corner will be somebody advocating for someone else. The doctors must comprehend the rights of both and must be able to balance them. That is why I use the word "internalising". They have to deal with it themselves. They have to have regard to the right to life of the unborn, always with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother. That is the proposal we have in the legislation. Putting an advocate in on one side necessarily raises the question of what one does on the other side of the equation. That would be wrong. There was one other point, which I cannot remember.