Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 20 June 2013

Public Accounts Committee

2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund

3:00 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am not summing up, but having listened and learned from what I have read about the issue, I wish to comment. Witnesses can correct me if I am wrong. Today, what we heard at the committee was SIPTU, on the one hand, telling us it believed matters were arranged through the office of project management at the SKILL programme, an office within the HSE. SIPTU has said the HSE is spinning, leaking and not helping it to co-operate. The way I read it is that SIPTU is pushing the blame firmly towards the HSE or the Department. It is not SIPTU’s fault; it is the fault of the HSE. On the other hand, the HSE is saying the opposite. I am trying to analyse the situation. I am not pointing the finger. I am saying what I heard. The HSE is stoutly defending its position saying the process had SIPTU written all over it and it accepted the bona fides of the person concerned. Nobody within either structure at a senior level has said there was something odd about the situation. Nobody rang an alarm bell or checked with a line manager or someone else. In spite of all that has been said, there does not seem to have been any real analysis of those that arrive back from the study visits imparting a great piece of knowledge to those with whom they worked to improve the relationship and make the grand change happen that we were all talking about at the time. There was no accountability and much of the information that had to be found out was not discovered by the HSE, the Department or SIPTU, but by the investigations that were conducted and, ultimately, the investigation that was undertaken by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

We have a letter from Mr. Smith of which witnesses are probably not aware, which we will pass on. We would appreciate comments on it. Mr. Merrigan is retired and not willing or otherwise available to come forward. A €78,000 payment was made by the real SIPTU to Grant Thornton to view a report that the Comptroller and Auditor General, the country’s accounting officer, cannot even see. A large sum of taxpayers’ money is still under question. The Committee of Public Accounts commenced an investigation and we have got to this stage. It rests on the HSE, the Department of Health and SIPTU, in co-operation with the Comptroller and Auditor General and the members of the committee to bring the matter to a conclusion. People will read reports on the issue and they will not believe that €78,000 was paid for a sneaked look at the report. It does not work like that. There are questions to be answered. We cannot sign off on the matter today, which we would normally do, as both Mr. O’Brien and Dr. McLoughlin, know. We are to have a private meeting next week at which we will discuss other matters and take legal advice. In terms of the other witnesses which Deputy Nolan and Deputy Harris have mentioned as being of interest to the committee, we will just have to take it to that stage and ask where we go from here.

That is not to blame anyone for non-co-operation or for not putting the facts before us. Dr. Smith’s original contribution to the committee was a complete eye-opener in terms of how she approached the issue, delivered the message and how accurate and concise she was. It was refreshing to hear what she had to say at that time, even though it was bad news. That is a general assessment of what went on and where we are. Undoubtedly, we will have to find some way of closing off on the matter but we will not do that today.

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