Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin:

Mr. Carey, Mr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Frank Ahern, who retired, did go to New York from 15 to 21 March. They had meetings with union leaders regarding human resources and industrial relations developments. They visited the City University of New York regarding upskilling, support staff and education.

In March 2007 when they went to Boston, Mr. Carey was on that trip with Mr. Frank Ahern, and the meetings were with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, regarding re-education exchange management seminars with various colleges, etc.

There was another trip in March 2008 to Savannah, Georgia. Again, a seminar was addressed on managing change in the workplace. The US experience relevant to the situation existing in Ireland at the time was also clear.

On the trip to Australia, via the US, there was another senior official. They met with community and public service union leaders, as well as senior officials in the health system, which are well-documented and logged. We are talking about the maximum of ten trips.

In March 2009, Mr. Carey and Mr. Ahern went to New York. Again, it was working with Cornell University looking at ICT issues and meeting with Lehman College.

On another trip to Vancouver, Canada, there were significant meetings with senior officials at the health Department there. They also visited various hospitals.

On 13 to 20 March, there were meetings with hospital employers and unions at St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Centre and the City University of New York. There was a visit to Minneapolis in September 2004 which included visits to a range of facilities, along with meetings with various federations and conciliation service.

Mr. Ahern had a variety of meetings in Los Angeles and in Victoria, Australia, which are well-documented.

Before I came to the committee, I asked for these details on the five serving and one retired officials who went on these journeys from 2003 to 2009 and am happy to provide it to the committee.

This is the factual position as known to me as Secretary General. I have been upfront and honest in saying that I believe the committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General are doing the public some service here and we have matters to learn. Unfortunately, the one major deficit is that the governance framework which was to be put in place in 2009 was not followed through and implemented in a manner that would be reasonable. There was a framework produced but it was not followed through. I am unhappy about that but I am being direct on that question. That is why I have emphasised the governance issues.