Derek Nolan (Galway West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I welcome Mr. O'Brien, Dr. McLoughlin and their officials to the meeting and thank them for attending. Mr. O'Brien and Dr. McLoughlin were not in place the last time the committee was asking questions on this topic. I am interested in their perspective as new officials in the Department of Health and the HSE. Having the Comptroller and Auditor General's report provides us with great finality. We know the facts. What we do not know is the motivation. We had a very interesting session this morning with Mr. O'Flynn of SIPTU during which we went through the background to the deliberate establishment of the fund to, in my view and in all likelihood, avoid detection. It was established in such a way as to ensure it would not come up on their audit accounts. They would not have to see it and it could be kept quiet. The Comptroller and Auditor General refers in his report to the setting up of the funding routes. The report is very stark, stating:

The complex routes used to channel public money to the fund created a risk that there would be confusion about responsibility for oversight and accountability for funding.

We had money going from the OHM and the Department of Health to the Midlands Health Board, the national health partnership fund and to a levy account. It was going all over the shop. From the point of view of the health service provider, there was a complex, difficult to trace method of funding over which there was a lack of oversight. On the union side, we had a fund which appeared to be set up ideally to prevent detection. That cannot be a mere coincidence. The facts are out there on lavish spending on foreign trips and hospitality, including a €100,000 Beaumont Hospital trip which was considered useless by those who took part in it. I find it hard to believe this inefficient and wasteful spending was a perfect storm of governance. We are into something a bit stronger than that. As two outsiders who were not present in the organisations at the time, do Mr. O'Brien and Dr. McLoughlin share that view or suspicion?