Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I suppose we will speak on head 4 initially. At the outset, may I say that we are not ignoring the issue of abortion. The fact is that more than 4,000 Irish girls and women go abroad every year to Britain for whatever reason, and there are a variety of reasons. In that context, can I ask the witnesses, in their professional opinion, are they saying that there has ever been a case in which a woman has actually taken her own life because, for whatever reason, she was in a crisis pregnancy? There could be myriad reasons, but she was in a crisis pregnancy in her mind at the time. Has there ever been such a case? We are legislating for the fact that the X case obliges us to look at the issue of suicide because of the constitutional imperative that is there. I want to get clarity on that issue.

It has been stated by other psychiatrists who are eminently qualified that termination of a pregnancy is not in itself a treatment for suicide. That was said quite openly here by many people today. Equally, they say that in a very rare circumstance it may be the only option left to save the life of the woman. That was stated but in the context of extreme circumstances. If the witnesses are saying that there is no evidential or clinical-based research data to suggest that termination is a treatment for suicide, why would it ever be prescribed? Why would psychiatrists ever prescribe a termination if the witnesses maintain that the clinical evidence is that it is never a treatment for suicide? In other words, why would the witnesses be concerned that this legislation would open up a more liberal form of abortion in this country if all the clinical evidence is that it is not a treatment for suicide? I am just asking that question.

We are aware that women go to extraordinary lengths when they are in crisis pregnancies, including self-abortion and self-imposed surgical interventions. We know what has happened with women in previous times; because they could not access abortion for whatever reason, they have done things and made interventions. That is still happening as we speak in this country, with abortive pills and so on. We know that women will go to extraordinary lengths. I am just asking the question. Is it possible that a woman would ever go to the most extraordinary length of all and take her own life?

On the issue of whether psychiatrists can decide whether a person would commit suicide, the witnesses say that of 100 people who were potentially suicidal, only three went on to actually commit suicide. Surely that shows that intervention, counselling and treatment actually work, in view of the fact that the witnesses have proscribed 100 people that in probability could have committed suicide, but only three actually did so. I assume it is because they all got treatment and because they were in a controlled environment. I assume they would have been assisted, assessed and counselled, so that treatment does work. The point I am making is this: if we have women who are at present going abroad, would it not be the case that instead of going abroad they might present themselves to the system here and that there could actually be interventions other than the extreme of actually going to England for a termination?