Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

No, we will get to that in a moment. I want to know the process. I am not interested in the reductions yet. The IMF, European Commission and the European Central Bank have adjudicated, if adjudication was needed, that we are not getting proper value for money. The process that has led us to the deals we are getting is not satisfactory from the taxpayer's point of view. Those bodies have decided that, although we have been saying it in this committee all the time. The witness will tell us that they got 20%, 10% or 5% off, but we are still paying too much. I gave one example. The HSE is paying 24 times the price of what an equivalent product can be purchased for 90 miles up the road. I think the reason we have not been getting value for money at all is that the witnesses have never spoken to the companies on a one-to-one basis, where the HSE is locked into a room and tells the company that if it does not provide the product at a certain price, the HSE will talk to another company. I do not understand it. One would not buy a car the way the HSE is doing this. It is like going to the Society of the Irish Motor Industry, SIMI, and asking it to get one a good deal on a car. The SIMI is there to represent its members. One will never get a deal if one is dealing through a trade association or body.

We will move on from that. Will the witnesses tell me the grade of the people - I do not need to know the names - representing the Irish taxpayer at these meetings as opposed to the representatives of companies whose turnover is bigger than Ireland's GNP? What is their grade and what level of commercial experience do they have? I am trying to find out what happens in the room where these prices are fixed. I believe there is not an equality of negotiating ability.