Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

The IFA representative said he would like to see competition law changed here. As he quite rightly pointed out, he has a lot more resources than I do as an Opposition politician. Is it possible for us to do so within European law? I am against it and I will be absolutely blunt about this. One of the worst decisions that was ever made in Europe was the Sutherland competition law. It has proven to be a disaster and I blame that law for the collapse of the banks. They made a god out of competition. Anybody or anything that stood in the way of competition, as they defined it, was to be steamrolled over. I have, therefore, never been a great proponent of competition at all costs. At the end of the day, as we saw in the horsemeat situation, the consumer pays one way or the other.

I would be interested in finding out the technical information, if the witnesses have it. Would the changes they want to see in competition law in Ireland be legal under European law?

It is a farce that the vulnerable sector, which in this case is suppliers, cannot muscle up to something so powerful that there can be no competition with it. They are in the weakest position by far. It is totally unfair competition. It is a bit like Wicklow playing Kerry in a football match. We need to get to the technical realities. We can all be for and against all sorts of nice things, but the question is whether it is an EU law problem or a domestic law problem. If it is a problem of domestic law, we can recommend in our report that the law be changed. If it is an EU law problem, we face a great deal more complexity.

I want what I said about milk processors to be absolutely clear. I said they could not get involved in a cartel because the Competition Authority would be down on top of them like a tonne of bricks. What I said was that even if they never spoke to each other, they all have the same cost base. If they were to make a profit for their suppliers and themselves, they should end up with the same profitable margin. It has been confirmed by the delegation that what is happening is that winter liquid milk suppliers are finding that it is becoming uneconomical to supply here. That leaves us with the issue of the North of Ireland. How can they produce milk so much more cheaply there and export it down here? I use the term "export" in a technical sense, which reflects the legal position even if some of us would not like to recognise the Border. How can they flood the market with cheap milk? Without forming another illegal international cartel, it would be in the interests of farmers North and South - and no doubt the IFA has talks with the Ulster Farmers Union, as it indicated it has with the National Farmers Union in Britain - to ensure that we do not end up without milk. If the day were to come that the island of Britain was short of winter liquid milk, to which I am referring specifically, the Northern Ireland farmer could start shoving product handily into the UK market. We could end up drinking Dutch UHT in the middle of winter if that happened as we would not have enough liquid supply. If people pull out of the industry, they will not easily return. Where are we in this triangle? Apparently that is the explanation of the low price to the winter milk producers. It is ironic that while we are being flooded with milk from the North, some of the largest suppliers in the south east of Ireland are being lobbied by companies from the island of Britain to put the milk on a boat and bring it there. We must deal with that issue.

Perhaps I am a simpleton, but I take it that Northern Ireland cannot supply the whole of the island of Ireland with milk in the winter. If suppliers refused to allow retailers to put their labels on the product, what could the retailer do? He would have no milk. I recognise that would involve a bit of eye-balling, but from what we have been told, the retail multiples are not slow to eye-ball themselves. Serious issues have been raised with us. They were raised with me last summer when I become the spokesman for agriculture. To be fair to the joint committee and the Chairman, in particular, it took the issue on board and widened it to a discussion on the power of the multiples. We must get to the bottom of it. In the meat and liquid milk sectors there is a clear connection between the supplier and the supermarket. It is not a long chain whereas in a very highly processed food, it is difficult to establish the prices of the various ingredients. The price of 33 cent per litre was quoted. I understand 2 litres of milk costs approximately €1.49 in a supermarket in the middle of winter. It can vary from €1.99 to €1.46. I understand there is no loss of milk during processing. One wonders where the rest of the money goes, who gets it and whether the distribution is fair.

I understand that boats will not transport animals even where all the certifications and approvals are in place. We are talking about a three-hour journey. It is no longer about bringing the poor animal from Galway to Dublin on a lorry. It would be nice for us to be able to play the market so that when the British price is up, we go there and when the Irish price is up, we keep them. They have a little bit of a hermetically sealed container here, which is very handy from them.

On the levy, there is a story going around, which I am glad the delegation has put to bed once and for all. In politics, all sorts of stories grow legs and become the truth after a while. The story is that the IFA put a picket on a well-known factory operator, who invited its representatives in for very useful negotiations. The story also goes that the parting shot as they went out the door was "Do not do that again, lads, because there will be no levy collected". I take it that story has been denied and there is no truth to it. Politics and lobbying is about perception. If the amount of money collected is only 5% or 6% and the people one is negotiating with on behalf of farmers collect the money, the system should be changed as we had to change our money collecting systems to make them more transparent and referrable to the person actually levied. It sends all the wrong signals to have the people with whom one is meant to be negotiating prices being the agents for collecting the money. I know they do not contribute, but they do the mechanical collecting of the money. As Fianna Fáil does, I suggest the IFA collects the money from the membership directly.