Marie Moloney (Labour) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the delegates. They had a difficult job, but at last somebody has tackled the issue.

I wish to make some observations. On the make-up of the advisory group, I note with disappointment that it does not include a representative of the Children's Alliance, Barnardos, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul or the National Women's Council of Ireland. It is mostly made up of departmental officials who, obviously, will try to make savings for the Department. I am not taking from the work of the group or implying it was not done properly, but such representation would have been welcome in seeking the point of view of the organisations mentioned.

Many statistics, facts and figures have been given to us, but I note that child benefit payments benefit 1.16 million children. If we take account of family income supplement, we are talking about a mere 57,000 children, which amounts to a huge difference. The family income supplement figures have been stagnant since 2009. There was a €6 increase in 2010 and the supplement benefits people to the tune of €360. In addition, self-employed persons are excluded and we all know that the self-employed are suffering, as they have nowhere to turn. They are even finding it difficult to access social welfare payments when their businesses go belly-up, so to speak. Those who are struggling have nowhere to turn to for help. Therefore, the reduction in child benefit will hit the self-employed.

While I agree with it being a universal payment, it is very difficult to stand over this when we see the figures bandied about in recent hours for the wages earned by individuals in the banking sector. If they have children, they, too, qualify for a universal payment, yet this morning I heard a woman say on the Pat Kenny radio show that she had to go to the community welfare officer for money to buy a pair of shoes for her child because she could not afford to buy them. She said she had sent the child to school in her Wellingtons this morning because she could not buy the child a pair of shoes. I am sorry, but it claws at my heart to think that is happening in this country.

The reduction in child benefit will affect people badly. In particular, it will affect low to medium income earners who may have an income of, say, €50,000, but what is their disposable income at the end of the month? Many of the people concerned who are working may have less disposable income than someone on social welfare by the time they pay all of their bills. We must closely examine the base figure. I accept it is not the job of the representatives to do this but the Government's. This entire issue warrants a much deeper discussion, perhaps among the members of this committee without the representatives being present. Other groups are due to come before the committee to discuss it, but before the Government makes a decision, we need to discuss it in detail.

When we debated this issue in the Seanad at the time of the budget, I recall the Minister for Social Protection saying she would not implement these changes until a proper child care system was in place. When I refer to "child care", I mean child care services in rural Ireland, as well as in urban Ireland. I live in rural Ireland and know how difficult it is for someone working to have a child attending a rural school. If someone is working in a nearby town and he or she has to collect the child to bring him or her to child care, it does not work. We must examine the model where after-school care is provided in rural schools. I am aware from speaking to a number of the schools that they are willing to co-operate and put in place child care services for children after school.

With Ms Madden, I was not in favour of taxing child benefit because I had worked out the same figures as her for the way people would suffer whether they were taxed at a rate of 20% or 40% and reckoned that low paid workers would be hit extremely hard. I seek clarification from the Department on how it will administer the payment. We are all well aware of the delays in administering any means-tested payment and Ms Madden is talking about means testing a large number of families. She can give it whatever name she wishes, but it is means testing. If we take farmers as an example, it is proposed to take into account farm holdings worth over €750,000 for third level grant purposes. Will that happen in the case of child benefit? What about individuals with second homes? It is always easy to administer measures for PAYE workers, but we need much more detail on the way this process will be administered. I accept Ms Mangan has said it can be done, but will she tell us how it can be done and how long it will take to means-test every family in the country?

If time permits, I will contribute again. I thank Ms Mangan who has many questions to answer, but that is the reason we are here.