Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I will throw my hands up and surrender at the outset, because I am the apprentice on this committee. I am only here courtesy of a lad in the Labour Party who refused to do what the Whip told him, so I will jump in at the deep end.

I acknowledge the seriousness with which Seán Whelan made the last few points on the need for reform. The largest democracy in the world, India, used electronic voting and the country is still afloat and growing. Here, we threw out our electronic voting machines. As a candidate involved in the longest count in the country, I know that even our counting process is out of date. That aside, if we believed the polls, Fianna Fáil would be back in power at the next election, which begs the question whether political reform or institutional reform is more important for us. I found the three contributions fascinating and challenging. We are in the process of serious discussion on the future of Europe, but we have seen the result of the Italian election, in which a comedian won 40% or so of the vote. Someone said Irish political comedians were already elected here to Parliament, and we gave a lead to the Italians. This is extremely worrying.

Ms Cahill referred to the discussion on fisheries and agriculture 40 years ago and said she was a eurosceptic in those days. I am not quite sure how to take her contribution, and whether it was deliberately provocative and challenging or she believes she has been vindicated and we should have stayed out of Europe 40 years ago. However, we are where we are and as parliamentarians we must address what is a very complex issue.

On the question of Britain, its proposed in-or-out referendum is not cast in stone in the sense that there are so many other conditions that must apply. First, they must win an overall majority and not have a part that is more pro-Europe. It is also interesting that, as I understand it, almost all chambers of commerce and commercial and industrial sectors in Britain are opposed to a referendum. The role of economics in the debate will be very important. We know England has its eurosceptics and perhaps Ms Cahill is a eurosceptic, but I am not too depressed about what might happen in England.

Ms Cahill says we are where we are and she voted "No". Some people say 1916 was wrong and 1922 was a failure and that the European Union will prove to be a failure if we carry along the logic of the historical path Ireland has taken. In ten years or 20 years' time we may see some people's prophecies vindicated in the history books. She mentioned that we were in a laboratory situation last February, and I think she was referring to the fiscal aspect of things. We were supposed to be talking about democratic accountability and the relationship between Europe, the Parliament and the people.

I am a parliamentarian who is brand new to this committee and to the issues being raised, apart from what I read in The Irish Times and occasionally the Irish Examiner. In a sense, the Irish people, because of our constitutional obligation to present them with referendums on a repetitive basis, may be more in tune with the situation. Perhaps it is similar to the abortion issue - we now know about more parts of women's bodies than we dreamt existed as kids. However, because of the debate on abortion, we are all clear on the issue. Perhaps Irish people, because of the importance of the referendums and treaties they must confront, have gone beyond our counterparts in Great Britain.

I have a question for Ms Cahill that I hope will help crystallise my thinking. I am on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, which deals with trade issues and engages in debate about the BRIC countries. Is it possible that the result of the competitiveness of capitalism is that the axis of power is shifting away from Europe to China and Asia and that the demographics of this European Union are inferior in comparison? Europe's is an aging population. Could it be that the world is changing to a greater extent because of capital concentrations in other regions and that this will give rise to serious competitive issues for us down the line?