John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

The explanation is that if it were not for the Department's intervention and oversight of that scheme, the saving of €8.5 million might not have been achieved. In other words, that saving would probably not have been identified had the Department not raised the issue. Were there surplus funds in the scheme over many years or were there inefficiencies therein which caused money to be wasted? As I understand the saving was made not because of the company's intervention but because the Department insisted on cost reductions. The margin in transport is so small transport operators chase down costs every day. When one considers that Bus Éireann off-loaded two-thirds of this scheme to private operators and adds to this the reservations PwC had about its accounts in the first instance, one wonders if would not have been better off putting the scheme out to tender. The only real way of finding out whether one is getting value for money or if a scheme is efficient or not is by going to tender. If it had gone to tender it would then have been able to cross reference one tender with another and learn in real terms whether it was getting value for money for the €152 million of taxpayers' money being spent on the scheme.

I raise this issue because at the committee's last hearing with Mr. O'Mahony the figures in regard to transport were broken down for us and the figures in terms of social welfare were also broken down for us. It is impossible to determine from the CIE accounts what is going on. Surely the best way of doing this business for the State, bearing in mind what is involved is €152 million of taxpayers' money, is to go to tender. What are the obstacles within the Department in this regard?