Mr. John Bryan:

The retention of properly funded Pillar 2 rural development funding is critical to the future of farming, but co-financing from the Government is essential. While Ireland is down in Pillars 1 and 2, over the next seven years there is a commitment from the European Commission to pay €313 million, which will require national co-financing to draw down. I have discussed this with the Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Naturally, I have no commitment at this stage but in some of the signals given, the Minister mentioned 47% co-financing but we need meaningful Pillar 2 schemes. Some other Deputies expressed concern but the European Commission has a clear view: Pillar 1 is to promote food production and create employment, while Pillar 2 is to nurture a higher standard. The commonages meet that higher standard. The greening requirement across the entire EU will be a level of permanent pasture, ecological setaside and crop rotation but this would be a higher level so there is no conflict whatsoever in paying a substantially higher Pillar 2 payment for higher greening measures.

Senator Healy Eames asked about income loss in Connemara. As Deputy Kyne pointed out, there are different commonages right next to each other. The requirements in the past did not all make sense. Some were destocked too much and now the problem is under-grazing.

There is a need for new plans but the biggest problem in Irish farming and hill farming is income. Mr. Gunning supplied the figures to show hill farmers do not retain 100% of their premium. Sheep farmers all over Ireland do not retain 100% of their income and neither do suckler farmers. Very few farmers retain the same amount of money as they draw in premiums become of compliance costs and family farm size.

Stocking should consist of sheep, cattle and horses, if necessary. That is not a problem. Deputy Kyne asked about special breeds and in the last REPS there was a higher payment for them. We would encourage farmers to stock them but they should be able to meet their stocking rate with a mixture. I do not care if they are Charolais cross, Lincoln cross or what they are as long as they graze the land.

Someone asked about active farmers. The farmers in the Gallery live on the hills. They farm sheep and cattle and they farm their share of the commonage. They do not live in another country and hardly know where the commonage is, but they actively farm it. Those farmers must be protected and they need a proper environmental scheme.

Some commonage is not grazed at all. The European Commission has the view that land that is not grazed is abandoned and should not be counted in the base area for the country. That is causing major problems in Spain, where they are talking about up to 20 million hectares that the Commission states are not being farmed and, therefore, should not be counted. Every Deputy and Senator has said that good agricultural and environmental practice means the land is farmed. It does not mean the farmer owns the land, be it in Kilkenny, Mayo or Kerry. It must be farmed actively and there would be more grazing done if it was not for faulty plans in the past.

One man and his dog is an example of why collective responsibility is lunacy where one man is being unreasonable. Should all the other people on that commonage be penalised because he is unreasonable? I have said before that the IFA absolutely rejects collective responsibility. If every Oireachtas Member was held responsible for one wrongdoer, they would have a lot of headaches. Let us be clear: collective responsibility is wrong. It is not fair and cannot be imposed on farmers.

The liaison committees can work and I accept the point made by several Members. These men know their hills and know what is a good level of stocking. There must be more liaison. Individual plans that work must be put in place.

Deputy Kyne asked about ten farmers sharing. If three of them are farming the commonage, under EU rules the three are entitled to payment.

If the other seven do not walk up the hill and are not farming it, they are not entitled to be paid under EU regulations. Deputy Ó Cuív noted how tired they become climbing the hill but they will not get tired if they do not climb the hill or farm it. Either one farms or one does not farm. The Commission does not provide payments for ownership of land but for farming and walking up a hill is being active.

To respond to Deputy Kyne, I welcome the meeting between the Minister and a number of Deputies who asked him to stop the letter being issued. It was an unreasonable letter that did not make sense.

On Senator Mooney's point, the National Parks and Wildlife Service will have to liaise much more with farmers on the ground. I am pleased that the Senator got a sense there would not be any coercion involved in the process.

Undergrazing and land abandonment are major problems. In Scotland, almost 1 billion ha of land which people used to walk have been taken over by gorse. People no longer walk on this land because sheep no longer graze on it. Scotland also has a major problem with lupus. Sheep used to act as magnets for ticks, which were then killed when the sheep were dipped. Walkers can no longer walk these areas because of gorse and lupus.

The only way forward is to keep farmers farming on hills. If one can keep a farmer on a hill, he will maintain and keep stock on it. Farm profitability is a major problem, however. As Senator Mooney noted, farm income is the most significant problem in the agriculture sector. Deputy Ferris referred to figures showing the average farm income was €15,000. That is the frightening reality for many farmers. Farm enterprises generate farm scale and so forth and we have maintained a substantial number of family farms. While our objective is to continue to do so, it is not proving easy to achieve.

To respond to Deputy Pringle, the issue of dormant shares is a problem. Mr. Gunning is much more familiar with what the Department wants to do with dormant shares. While the bulk of commonages are located in the west, stretching from County Donegal to west Cork, there are also commonages in other counties, including Wicklow, Louth and within half a mile of my home. All commonages have dormant shares and one only finds out who owns them when one tries to sort something out. An appeals process will be essential to any changes on commonages because one cannot have a bureaucratic system deciding the stocking rate on farms without consultation.

An upland environmental scheme fits in completely with Pillar 2. Pillar 1 will have higher greening requirements but they will not be anywhere near the levels of the requirements in the old REP scheme, which was a whole-farm scheme, or several of the agri-environment options scheme measures. It is easy to have an upland management scheme. Several countries, including Scotland, are considering them, while Austria has very good upland schemes in place. We are not reinventing the wheel but seeking to find a scheme that works for farmers.

I agree with Deputy Ferris on the cuts that have been implemented since 2008. Mr. Gunning reminded members that hill farmers were the biggest losers from the first cut in the disadvantaged areas scheme, which reduced the eligibility threshold for payments from 45 hectares to 34 hectares. As hill farmers had a higher average acreage, they incurred one third of the reduction in payments, even though they did not account for one third of the farmers affected.

A question was asked about the Minister. I am not the Minister and fail to understand how people get confused about this sometimes. The IFA is a lobbying organisation, while the Minister makes decisions. We lobbied the previous two Governments for eight years and the current Minister for the past two years. Sometimes I wonder if people listen to us and I am often concerned about that.