David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome Mr. Maguire. Unfortunately I did not hear his initial presentation as I was speaking and voting in the Seanad, and I will have to return to the Chamber to do the same again in a few minutes. I was here when he made a remark to the effect that we need not concern ourselves about human rights and that he has never seen abuses. However, they are widespread and they are widely known. I say this as somebody who voted against the beef deals, including perhaps some that Mr. Maguire helped to negotiate, with Saddam Hussein's Iraq several years ago. As Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan pointed out, we have to live in a practical and realistic world, but I share her concern about the possible rebalancing of this committee to give greater prominence to trade and downgrade human rights.

As one of the only Members to vote against the beef deal, the case of Iraq was instructive to me. While it was admitted on the Government benches that what I did may have been the moral response, I was asked rhetorically whether Ireland could afford it. As I am sure Mr. Maguire knows only too well, what actually happened was that war broke out and Saddam Hussein's Government welshed on the payments. The Irish taxpayer was forced to pick up the bill under the export credit guarantee scheme. We did the immoral thing and we paid through the nose for it. I think the amount paid out was approximately €79 million.

In respect of Libya, it has emerged in the past week that the British Government has been forced to pay £2.2 million to Mr. Sami al-Saadi, who was kidnapped by the Americans with the collusion of British intelligence services, taken to Libya and severely tortured. His family, including his pregnant wife, were also kidnapped and brought to Libya. They were deeply shocked by this. To show these defilements of human rights are not uniquely an Arab phenomenon, the head of MI6, who is also a tub-thumping Christian, congratulated the then head of intelligence in Libya on the delivery of the "cargo" and wrote that while "I know I did not pay for the air cargo", British intelligence had ensured a safe arrival. That is an appalling sentiment to express in regard to human beings who were illegally kidnapped - the Americans used the euphemism of "extraordinary rendition".

I am making no differentiation between the Arab world and the Western world because both have been complicit in the violation of human rights. My function as a member of this committee is to raise these issues. I have raised violations of human rights by Arab regimes and the Israelis. I am not interested in Jewish rights, gay rights, women's rights or Palestinian rights; I am interested in human rights. I understand that people in the business world feel they have to make these contacts and it is difficult to raise ethical issues when this country is in such a parlous state. This afternoon the Seanad will be discussing the Social Welfare Bill 2012, which makes savage cuts to carers' benefits and other areas. I hope the Seanad will oppose the Bill and return it to the Government for further consideration. I understand the difficulty in raising these issues when people are bleeding in our country but if the business is advantageous to others they will be unlikely to reject it if concerns are raised in a polite way and if our ethical position is presented, if we believe in it. The Islamic countries are usually lacking in diffidence when presenting their views of morality. We should not be completely tongue-tied. My concern is for human rights generally and is not directed at Arabs specifically. I would equally criticise the United States of America for the dehumanising effect of drone attacks, which are horrible. We would be less than human if we shed this aspect of the committee's work, which I regard as equally important. If this was only a committee on foreign trade I would not bother to attend its meetings. I hope I have registered my concerns in a way that is not offensive.