Mr. Liam Moyles:

I am here on a voluntary basis. My background is that I worked for 27 years in charge of the farm apprenticeship scheme. The scheme was a hands-on programme of on-farm learning. I empathise with the point Deputy Ó Cuív is making and he has four converts here. Learning farming under that scheme was what one learned hands-on in the field and not in the classroom. The scheme faded in early 2000s because agricultural college places dried up and the whole scene changed, but now that is changing back. This delegation is in favour of the hands-on approach. We have a slide on training doers, not talkers. Farming is a tough game, physically, mentally, and financially.

I will respond to Deputy Heydon's question about what constitutes a manager. One can define a manager in every way and in one way. When we talk about managers, it could be herdsmen, a farm labourer, there could be arrangements for joint equities, there could be a salary and it could be half and half. It is about trying to follow the New Zealand path and creating steps of entry for young people. We do not have all the answers, but there are some ideas to think about.

I will answer the question on education before I hand over to my colleagues, the practitioners. who will answer questions on the other areas. Since the board was absorbed into Teagasc, ten years ago, I have worked in education. My next point is not a criticism, but a fact of life. With the downturn in numbers and issues with the budget, one serious negative development is the failure to provide the same level of training at local level as existed historically. I am a strong believer in the provision of training at local level. Adults who have worked as plumbers and on building are now returning to farming. They need the expertise, knowledge and skills, which in the past the local Teagasc office was in a position to provide in competition, so to speak, with agricultural colleges. The demise of that system - it now only exists in an odd county - is a shame. Teagasc needs resources to provide that type of training. I know from my last two years in Teagasc that we worked very hard with some counties to try to get those courses up and running. The colleges are chock-a-block. There are pockets in the country where students do not want to go agricultural college. In my view the solution to the problem is known, but the question is how to put it in place. I do not have an answer for the lack of money. The part-time option at county level with the local advisers and education staff on the ground providing the training has been tried and tested.

The motto of the farm apprenticeship scheme and the new dairy programme as developed by Teagasc is "learning by doing". Students who have done two years in college, some of whom will have a minimum of six months done on farms and some who will have done work experience in New Zealand or elsewhere, will do a further two years on farms as part of this new diploma. In addition to the first six months of on-farm experience, they have the choice to go to New Zealand for six more months. We have some information on that programme which we will provide to the joint committee.

It is valid to say that the numbers we provided are out of date because the data from the CSO are two years old. While numbers have bulged in the colleges in the previous year and this year, it will be a while before those enrolled will be deemed holders, so the statistics will not change for a while. Our purpose today is to make them change and speed up the rate of change. In my view those who are in college now will have not much choice but to make a go of farming. We need to open the gates to give them that chance. That is what my colleagues and I are trying to do here today.

The delegation as a whole and the Irish Farm Managers Association are dairy-oriented, but we see this as wider than dairy. As my colleagues are all in dairy farming, that is what they know. I am not farming, but much of what we say will apply to the cattle sector, where we can make a great many improvements. My colleagues will deal with the other points.