Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I agree with Deputy McDonald that many people find it difficult to understand why some people are in receipt of such substantial pensions, especially as some of them may not deserve them and the country can ill afford them. At the same time, when putting forward proposals, we must try to be as realistic as possible. I am sure the Minister of State got his advice from the Attorney General, but did Deputy McDonald get legal advice on the imposition of 99% levies on large pensions? I do not think it would withstand a legal challenge. Did Sinn Féin get legal advice to the effect that such a levy would be lawful? If such advice is available, the Department should review it because during discussions on this matter in recent years the advice has been that imposing levies that are considered to be disproportionate on one group above another would be unconstitutional. The question of how much can be taken from existing pensions is a difficult one to answer.

Deputy Fleming criticised the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, in the context of what is happening with his Department's Vote but I remember a meeting with the previous Minister for Health and Children during the last Administration, where he could not tell us how many people were working for the HSE. He had no idea of the numbers. Furthermore, memorandums were sent by Ministers in various Departments to the effect that no additional staff should be hired, but people were being taken on left, right and centre. When the HSE was set up we were expecting to see a rationalisation of top management. The objective was that there would be fewer people running a more co-ordinated service but what happened was the original top grade in the old health board system, which numbered around 50, exploded and reached 780 at its peak. That was pure mismanagement on the Government's part. It should not have allowed such an increase in the number of Grade 8 staff, that is, senior management. On top of that, we had two rounds of benchmarking, which resulted in excessive pay increases. All of that has left the current Minister in an extremely difficult situation. He is trying to control budgets and spending.

The Minister of State made reference to future pay to pensions ratios, which is something that worries many people. In the coming years, new entrants to the public service will be paid less but the pensions being paid out will be based on the old pay rates. That in itself will create an enormous problem for future Governments because public servants will resent the fact that they are being paid less than some pensioners. It is very important to clarify what has happened on the pensions front, in terms of levies and other charges, as well as the reductions that have happened in recent years. There is political capital available to the Opposition in terms of arguing that there are many people who are floating around on massive pensions and that the Government is just putting up with that. There have been enormous reductions made to people's pensions, particularly to the larger ones. I ask the Minister of State to provide figures to the committee on the pension reductions that have been made for the specific grades referred to by Deputy McDonald. A comparison between the amounts paid in 2007 and 2012 would be useful.