Mr. Mike Allen:

Yes. This is a social need but the idea was that we can save money by private landlords being offered less than market rates for their property. Understandably they would rather secure the private rate. The State, however, has said it will not do a deal. It seems to be a saving but the consequence is that no social housing is being provided. If the State is to enter the private market, and Focus Ireland is neutral about that being the best way to go about it because it is State policy, it must recognise the reality of private rates in the market and not try to force them down as a form of social engineering, which is how it would be described from a different ideological position.

Deputy Stanley is right; everyone is aware the system works through people making illegal top-ups to pay their rent. Our staff in Focus Ireland are knowingly advising people about how to do something that is not supposed to happen. Every Deputy in the country is doing it while coming into the Dáil and being party to the legislation. We hear so much about social welfare fraud in which poor people are meant to be ripping off the State but this is social welfare fraud where the State is forcing poor people to rip themselves off. It does not just push them deeper into poverty, but into rent arrears and I am sure Deputies have seen this. People will say they can do it for a few months but then they get into rent arrears and into arrears with other household debt and end up losing their tenancy. It just does not work. Those people then fall back on homeless services which cannot sustain them.

It is not that Focus Ireland is saying we do not think building is necessary outside Dublin; we are a national organisation but we do not have the level of expertise to say building is necessary elsewhere. It is an open question but our specific point about Dublin is not just about taking existing housing into social housing, but about the need to start building again.

That point must be discussed much more.