Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

That is fine. The general picture emerging from these proceedings is that there are approximately 67,000 direct HSE staff, of whom 41,000 - in the region of two thirds - are in receipt of allowances. Our guests indicated that there are of the order of 36,000 people operating in the voluntary sector. One could assume, therefore, that approximately 24,000 of the latter are in receipt of some of allowance. Are our guests aware of any new allowances in the voluntary sector that are separate from those which they have been examining? Obviously, the voluntary sector is a different animal and different traditions have grown up within it. Those in the sector must engage in a variety of different practices. I accept that our guests have not reached a conclusion in respect of this matter.

I understand from where Deputy Donohoe was coming in respect of the questions he posed. We are trying to examine the position with regard to allowances across the public service and we have obtained some inconsistent definitions in this regard. I appreciate that the definition provided by our guests relates to allowances of €166 million, weekend payments of €190 million, overtime payments of €177 million, night payments of €73 million and on-call payments of €65 million. This amounts to €661 million in overall allowances which are directly relates to the HSE. One would assume half that amount again is paid in allowances in the voluntary sector. The overall figure for allowances in the health sector is, therefore, approximately €1 billion. If we were to use the definitions employed by the other organisations and Departments which came before us in respect of allowances and apply them to the health sector, then an amount substantially in excess of €2 billion would be under examination. The conclusion to which we are coming is that many allowances are essentially core pay elements. In other words, they are payments in respect of hours worked. We are of the view that some Departments, etc., are employing something of a misnomer in the context of allowances. It is difficult to separate the definitions. Our guests will understand, therefore, that the committee is obtaining different views from across public service.

Are there many allowances payable in the voluntary sector which would not be considered normal if they came within the ambit of the HSE? Are the allowances within that sector and the general health sector generally the same?