John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

This is not a criticism of Mr. Coughlan or Mr. Watt; it is a fact. We have spoken about allowances in the public service and Civil Service and one knows what was expected of the paperkeeper or franker in respect of the allowance they received. However, it appears we are locked into a system of payments and no one has related these payments to the costs involved in being a Member of the Dáil or Seanad. Such figures could be applied to the various allowances. The reason I am raising this is because I have always argued allowances should be vouched. Someone should quantify what it is all about. My question is with regard to who will address this. We fob in here for a certain number of days, but no one fobs me in or out of my constituency office when I work there. No one physically checks on the size my office, how I conduct my business or how long I am there.

Deputy McDonald referred to the Chairman's allowance.

I will not defend it in any way but nobody has made an assessment of what they do for that money. Are extra hours really put in in terms of chairing this or any other meeting of the committee? I do not mind doing my job but in terms of being paid for expenses or allowances that are properly and legitimately incurred in the course of those duties, I believe Mr. Watt, the Minister and Mr. Coughlan and his officials should have a greater understanding of the costs of how we actually function. I am not making any case for us. I am simply saying that this would be done in business. One would find out what one's 226 cost centres are about and what it is that they do. Is that what we are electing and paying them to do? When one gets elected here, as Deputy Murphy said, one is given one's book about how the House functions and allowances and so on. Mr. Watt mentioned it in terms of people consulting us about what we do and how we influenced those decisions in the past to increase the levels of allowances or not. However, people are paid to sit in the committee at €9,500 per head and I do not know whether that is value for money. I would ask the Department and the Houses of the Oireachtas Service to look at what we do in this House. How do they know if they are getting value for money out of me or anybody else in this House.

To address a point raised by Deputy Fleming because it is a legitimate one, if all of these people - 39 Deputies, 12 Ministers and 44 Senators - were to claim their allowances at the higher level, how does one know they will claim them at this level? How does one know that they run an office that costs them "X" amount for electricity or the telephone because one does not know? The basis for any system must be based on the reality of what is happening to Senators, Deputies and Ministers. I cannot understand how when one is appointed a junior or senior Minister, one goes from this place and has allowances from here but the Department pays one something else. That needs to be analysed and to stand up in terms of the argument for it. Then we might not have the type of negative commentary or misunderstanding we get from the public because it is a factual thing. If that is seen as being reasonable to ask for, who will undertake that analysis of the cost? Will it be Mr. Coughlan or Mr. Watt?