Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour) | Oireachtas source

If one does not allow public services to be paid for, they must be privatised. The Deputy is not campaigning against the private sector bin collectors in the same way as he campaigned against the public ones. He will probably adopt the same approach to water and other services. That is the very strategy that will ensure privatisation. Those of us who are interested in quality public services know that public companies such as the ESB can compete with the best. We do not believe electricity should not be paid for because it is provided by a public company. This points to the absurdity of some of the Deputy's views on these matters.

We need to have reforms. Some services are better offered in the private sphere and others in the public sphere. We need efficiencies. I hope to have the efficiencies of the private sector match the integrity and quality of the services of the best of the public service. This is the reform plan and what we are working towards.

Pensions for former officeholders are a disquieting issue. This is why, shortly after I entered office, I examined how we could reduce these pensions. I introduced the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill and went as far as my legal advice would allow to lower them. The advice is that pensions are preserved property rights under the Constitution. Therefore, the claw-back had to be proportionate. If one adds the pension abatement for pension holders, the significant taxation that applies and the universal social charge, one finds a great difference in the gross and net figures.

With regard to public pay generally, we often compare gross figures without examining the net figures based on the significant increases in taxes that now fall on all workers, both public and private. In the public sector there is the additional 7% pension reduction which is a 7% tax, no matter how one slices and dices it, over and above the normal tax that falls on the private sphere. Net rates present a different picture, but I agree entirely with the views on a very tiny category of earners, including senior politicians, senior public servants and some very senior officeholders in the public sector who have very large pensions. There are specific proposals in the programme for Government on the calculation of tax supports for future pensions within the public and private sectors and I hope they will be implemented.