Mr. Aidan O'Connor:

To be clear, that is a United Kingdom charter. "Charter" does not necessarily equate with a chartered engineer in Engineers Ireland. We are getting into a complex area of comparable degrees. I am not underestimating their contribution. I have the highest regard for people who come through the architectural technician courses in the various institutes of technology. They come out with outstanding results. It is a degree status. It is not at the same level as a chartered engineer, a registered architect or a registered building surveyor. Those who have brought it to that level and who have undertaken those examinations have joined those various bodies and are now practising.

The people the Deputy mentioned who are on the BRAB have dual membership within one of the professional bodies as well as their relationship with the CIAT. We met with representatives of the CIAT and went into a good deal of detail. I thought we explained the position but they took umbrage when the matter was referred to the Minister to be signed. What did they think was the process? It was going to lead to that. We have met with those people. People in those positions can apply to the recognised bodies to become an applicant in one of those bodies. Some opt for the architectural body and others opt for the building surveyor body, while some opt for the engineering one. Engineers usually opt for the engineering body, and it is chartered engineers in that case. The chartered engineer is at a very reputable and responsible level. It is a matter of trying to establish levels of responsibility. We use the levels of responsibility recognised and allowed under the various Acts.

For clarity purposes, the multi-unit developments, MUDs, legislation brought before the Houses by the Minister for Justice and Equality examined what can define people who should be suitable for signing off on the various aspects of the MUDs Act and came down in favour of the Building Control Act and the supporting engineers Act, which is a separate one but is often in parallel. It defined that as well, and we define it in these regulations. It is not to prevent the fine work being done. I stated that there were ancillary certificates and if we take the role of an architectural technologist, for example, in facade design or something in a contemporary building, they might be terrific at that. They will be signing off on that because someone else who does not have that level of knowledge will not be able to sign off on it. They will require a sign off in terms of a subsidiary or ancillary certificate.