David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I believe that civilised discourse and courtesy are very important values and for that reason I welcome the presence of our guests who will of course be treated with courtesy. I too recognise the immensely rich history of Iran or Persia since ancient times. I have had the privilege as a member of this committee or because I was a Member of Seanad Éireann of visiting Tehran and the remarkable welcome that we were given by the people. Our visit coincided with a religious festival and officials could not meet us in the beginning. We were taken up the mountains and local people were warm and welcoming to the strangers in their midst. I also had the opportunity to visit Isfahan, a city of immense and complex richness and technological advances, even in the 15th and 16th centuries. The beauty of the mosques and palaces in that enormous square is a sight to behold.
I also asked some questions at that stage and I am very heartened that my colleagues, Deputies Eric Byrne and Maureen O'Sullivan, have asked some of these difficult questions. It is important that people do ask the difficult questions because it by answering these difficult questions that friendship is established.

If we conceal these questions and do not ask them, however difficult they are, they will just fester. Some people say that democracy is not suited to every country. I suggest that the ambassador's country, which has an immensely long tradition of jurisprudence, for example, should understand the rule of law. That is not the case at the moment, however. We are aware of that. I have no doubt that the evidence for the things that have been alleged with regard to arrest and torture is overwhelming. The ambassador might not be aware that I have spoken against torture. I was horrified when the Americans attempted to justify the use of torture. I am interested in human rights. It is not a question of whether people are Jewish, Muslim, gay, not gay or whatever - it is a question of the right to respect that is at the core of being human.

When I was in a mosque in the Middle East three weeks ago, I read a document with great interest. I am sure the ambassador and his adviser are much more familiar with it. It seemed to be a kind of last letter of the holy prophet Muhammad, in which he gave his final message to the faithful. He spoke about the need for respect for difference. He said Muslims did not believe they were better because they were white rather than black, or because they were this, that or the other. I thought it was a wonderful and prophetic message, but it does not always seem to be enacted by the Iranian Government. Why make a pretence of democracy when the Guardian Council is in existence? It is easy to win an election if one excludes the entire opposition. I am sure I could be in permanent power - I could attain any position in this country - if I could eliminate anyone who stood against me and did not share my views. That is dangerous because it means the Iranian Government does not reflect the views of the Iranian people. That really worries me. I was very saddened to hear an Irish person who has business interests in Iran saying some time ago that Iran was a democracy because it had just held an election. I rang in - I am glad to say I was put on - to point out that it was not an election as we understand it. I will mention a disturbing case. Mansoureh Behkish was sentenced to four years in prison, having been accused of assembly and conspiring with intent to harm national security, after she established the Mourning Mothers group for women whose children have been killed, forcibly disappeared or detained. It is a natural instinct for mothers to protect their children. How can that threaten a state? The state should foster children.

I wish to speak about the executions in Iran. I am concerned about the method of execution and the increase in the rate of execution. I have protested about this in the United States. I am against the death penalty. People are often killed in Iran because of their nature. I am glad that Deputy Eric Byrne raised the question of gay people. I was horrified to see the photographs to which he alluded. I could not bear to watch the video showing two young men being hanged from a crane on the back of a lorry because they had been in a relationship. I understand one of them was under age. The executions of minors is awful. I would ask those in the Iranian Government to try to put themselves in the position of those people. Those young people were roughed up and humiliated. They did not even have the salve of believing they were shahid, or martyrs. It goes against the very core of decency and humanity that they died in such ignominy, loneliness and despair, deprived of religious comfort and everything else.

I raised this issue with former President Rafsanjani and Mr. Velayati when I was in Tehran. They said I could not understand it because I am not a Muslim. My answer was that I have read the holy Koran. Having read the words of the holy prophet Muhammad, which I treat with great respect, I am aware that he did not appoint such punishments. How can the Iranian Government purport to erect itself as a greater moral authority than the holy prophet himself? That seems to be an arrogance that is very close to blasphemy. I also raised the question of the Jewish people with them. I have been accused by Israel of being anti-Semitic. If everybody thinks I am a different thing, perhaps some little core is right. It is unrealistic to deny the Holocaust, or to arrest tiny communities on the basis of spying. I would worry that inflamed rhetoric might help to provoke an attack, which would be a disaster. I would do everything I could to try to restrain such an attack.