Mr. Bernard Coyle:

I will do my best. It is not easy. Fundamentally, there always will be a certain segment of people who wish to produce for the local farmers' market but not for the shop, or for the local shop but not for the supermarket, or for the supermarket but not for the multiple chain of stores or whatever. Perhaps a case could be made that the agencies should try to segregate who from that group - be it 100, 1,000 or 10,000 people - is actually interested in going at the outset from stage 1 to stage 3, or from platform 1 to platform 3 in order that the agencies could nurture those people who wish to make that break for whatever reason. Such people might have an ambition to make it a family business, a national business or an international business as opposed to those who will simply be content to go to the farmers' markets three days a week with what they or their family are able to produce to sell what they can.

Another angle is that people need to be guided. Traditionally, artisan food markets arose from the idea that people would make what they were good at. Consequently one person might make soda bread, another might make chutneys, someone else might make jams and so on and off everyone goes. However, if people want to reach the next level, they must stop and think about it at an early stage. They must ask whether they are making something for which there is a gap in the market. This reverts to Senator Clune's point on where are the gaps on supermarket shelves. Unless one is going to make the most wonderful soda bread ever produced, there is no point. While most people think they do, unfortunately many people make many wonderful products. Consequently, at some stage people need to stop and think whether this will be a growth business that will become a national or an international company and whether there is a gap for the product in the market. The agencies need to work with such people at that stage to tell them that while they make a wonderful product, it will never be any bigger than the local market, local shop or whatever.

An element of segregation is required, which ties into research and development. The multiples will tend to work with those with a good research and development facility or background in place. It is cost neutral to them. They want people coming to them and pointing out how they could supply an item better, more cheaply or with a longer life. The biggest trap into which people fall is to approach the multiples with "me-too" products in which they are not interested.

Senator White will have come across this. If we were to ask Bord Bia, Enterprise Ireland or the enterprise boards how many food companies were building plants, we would get a long pregnant pause and people would need to think about it. Leaving out the bigger companies such as Glanbia and Kerry, there seems to be a major gap between the artisan producer and the medium-sized company with more than 50 employees which have the buildings, accreditation and management to enable them to move on to the export level.

Deputy Calleary stated earlier that food production seems to have almost gone to a pharmaceutical style. The quality of buildings and the amount of accreditations required for food producers is at a pharmaceutical level and in some cases even greater. They are required to have a number of audits in addition to the BRC, which is the accreditation sought even in France. A considerable expense and management time is consumed on that. Senator Clune asked how we could get artisan producers from employing two to five people up to 20 or 30 and onto 50, which represents the launch platform for export markets. All the bodies need to review it and see what can be done. By all means we should help everybody, but different help is required by different sections.