Seanad debates
Thursday, 28 June 2012
Gaeltacht Bill 2012: Committee Stage
11:00 am
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I move amendment No. 1:
In page 6, subsection (2), lines 16 to 20, to delete all words from and including "Act," in line 16 down to and including "provisions" in line 20 and substitute the following:
"Act comes into operation six months following the day the Act is passed".
Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit agus leis an Roinn mar gheall gur cuireadh siar Céim an Choiste den Bhille toisc go raibh go leor leasuithe le cur. Mar is léir ón liosta leasuithe, bhí cuid mhaith rudaí le plé againn maidir leis an mBille seo. Bhí sé tábhachtach go dtabharfar am faoi leith do Chéim an Choiste. Tuigim go raibh fuinneamh ar leith ann in óráid an Aire Stáit ar an Dara Céim den Bhille agus molaim sin ach tá riar maith bunfhadhbanna leis an Bhille agus sin atáimid ag iarraidh a phlé ar an Chéim seo go háirithe. Rachaimid tríothu de réir a chéile.
Molaim an chéad leasú seo in alt 1(2), na focail go léir ó "seo," síos go dtí "éagsúla.", agus na focail sin san áireamh, a scriosadh agus "seo i ngníomh sé
mhí tar éis an lae a rithfear an tAcht." a chur ina n-ionad. Tá sé tábhachtach go gcuirfear teorainn ama leis an gcuid seo den Bhille. Cuid den imní atá orainn ná cé chomh scaoilte agus atá an Bille seo agus an méid cumhachta atá sé ag fágáil i lámha an Aire. Ní aon locht pearsanta é sin ar an bhfear atá sa chathaoir i láthair na huaire, ba chuma cé a bheas ann mar Aire , nó ba chuma cén páirtí as a dtiocfadh sé, an iomarca cumhachta a fhágáil i lámha Aire ar bith. Seo ceann de na rudaí anseo chomh maith céanna, go bhfuilimid den tuairim go bhfuil sé tábhachtach go gcuirfear teorainn ama, go háirithe i gcomhthéacs an staidéir chuimsithigh teangeolaíochta atá déanta maidir le húsáid na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht.
Sean Barrett (Independent)
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It is operating as a broadcast rather than a translation.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Ní dhéanfaidh mé athrá ar an méid a dúirt mé. Fáiltím roimh an tacaíocht theicniúil ansin. Gan dabht tá sé fíorthábhachtach go mbeadh an córas aistriúcháin sa Teach ag feidhmiú agus molaim na Seanadóirí a bhíonn ag úsáid an chórais sin agus molaim na haistritheoirí agus lucht teicniúla a chuireann ar fáil é.
Bhí mé ag moladh go gcuirfear teorainn ama leis an am a gcuirfear an tAcht i bhfeidhm ann mar tá imní orm go bhfágtar an iomarca cumhachta i lámha an Aire. Níl an tAire féin go pearsanta i gceist agam, déarfainn an rud céanna dá mbeadh Aire de chuid Sinn Féin ann. Is féidir an tAcht seo a chur i gcrích de réir mar a fheileann an tAire ag aon am is maith leis. Táimid ag moladh go gcuirfear seo i ngníomh sé mhí tar éis an lae a rithfear an tAcht.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Tá ceist amháin agam: an bhfuil teorainn ama ar intinn ag an Aire féin? Níos lú nó níos mó na sé mhí?
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Tá job mór á dheanamh againn anseo. Beidh 19 ceantair phleanála Gaeltachta againn ar fud na tíre, gan trácht ar na líonraí taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Táimid ag fanacht leis an Bhille seo le fada agus ag ullmhú don Bhille le blianta. Bhí brú mór ag teacht orainn ó na meáin agus ó Teachtaí agus Seanadóirí faoi chén uair a bheadh an Bille ag dul tríd an Teach. Tá áthas orm go bfuair na Seanadóirí deis cúpla lá a fháil chun a gcuid moltaí agus leasuithe a chur isteach. Cuirim fáilte roimh sin. Cuirim fáilte freisin roimh an suim atá léirithe ag an Teach seo sa Bhille, go bhfuil breis agus 100 leasú istigh. Tabharfaidh sin deis dúinn é seo a phlé go maith agus go mion.
Maidir liomsa, níl aon fhonn orm mar Aire Stáit aon mhoill ró-mhór a chur ar seo. Dúradh sa straitéis agus sa tsuirbhé teangeolaíochta go bhfuil géarghá leis an mBille a thabhairt isteach. Ach mar sin féin, aithním go bhfuil obair mhór ann. Ba mhaith liom go rachadh sé tríd an Teach an-luath, ach níl mé ag iarraidh mé féin nó an Roinn a cheangailt síos. Nuair a bheidh an Bille tríd an Teach, beidh rialacháin á thabhairt isteach. Tá sin luaite i dtús an Bhille. Beidh mé ag tabhairt isteach na rialacháin cuí chun na rudaí seo a chur i bhfeidhm agus glacfaidh sé sin tamall. Níl aon mhoilleadóireacht i gceist agam. B'fhéidir go mbeidh sé déanta taobh istigh de dhá bhliain nó taobh istigh de bhliain. Níl mé ábalta sin a insint do na Seanadóirí ag an am seo, ach is féidir liom m'fhocal a thabhairt nach gcuirfidh muid aon mhoill air. Níl mé ag iarraidh mé féin ná an Roinn a cheangailt taobh istigh de teorann ama, ach nílim ag úsáid sin mar bhealach éalaithe chun fáil amach ó teorann ama. Caithfimid a bheith praiticiúil agus réadúil. Déanfaidh muid é chomh luath agus is féidir. Mar sin, ní féidir liom glacadh le teorann ama de chineál ar bith, ach déarfaidh mé arís nach bhfuil aon mhoilleadóireacht i gceist.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit as an soiléiriú sin. Ach an oiread leis an Aire Stáit, sílim go raibh sé tábhachtach gur cuireadh an am breise ar fáil le haghaidh Céim an Choiste. Seo an Bille is tábhachtaí do mhuintir na Gaeltachta a bhí ann le 56 bliain agus sin an fáth go bhfuil an oiread sin leasuithe istigh. Glacaim leis an méid atá ráite ag an Aire Stáit. Tuigim go bhfuil géarghá go mbrúifidh an rud seo ar aghaidh. Glacfaidh mé le focal an Aire Stáit agus táim sásta go leor lena fhreagra. Is féidir linn bogadh ar aghaidh mar sin agus ní bhrúifidh muid an leasú áirithe seo.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 110 are related and will be discussed together.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Ar phointe oird, ní bhfuair mise liosta de na groupings ar chor ar bith, cé gur sheiceáil mé mo ríomhphoist.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Tá siad ar fáil anois agus tá súil agam go bhfuil an Seanadóir sásta iad a thógáil le chéile.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I move amendment No. 2:
In page 6, line 22, after "Gaeltacht" to insert "in this State".
Ceist í seo a théann go dtí croi an scéil ó thaobh na ceiste náisiúnta de. Táimid ag iarraidh go dtabharfaí aitheantas go bhfuil an dá dlínse i gceist agus go bhfuil Aire Cultúir, Ealaíon agus Fóillíochta ó Thuaidh agus go bhfuil Aire anseo chomh maith. Táimid ag iarraidh go mbeidh an Bille soiléir nuair a luaitear an tAire atá i gceist. Tá sé i gceist againn, i líne 22 "in this State" a chur isteach i ndiaidh "Gaeltacht". Tá an tír seo fós roinnte. Tá muidne i Sinn Féin ag iarraidh go mbeadh Poblacht 32 contae againn, ach, faraoir, níl sin againn. Nílimid sásta leis an dul chun cinn atá á dhéanamh ag an Rialtas maidir leis na cruinnithe parlaiminteacha leis an Bhreatain Mhór le go mbrúifí an cheist i dtaobh aontú na tíre chun cinn. Chuir an ráiteas a rinneadh aréir sa Teach seo agus sna meáin ag Cathaoirleach Pháirtí an Lucht Oibre, maidir leis an seasamh agus an gceist faoin 32 contae agus Poblacht uile-Éireann a bheith againn, an-díomá orm.
Mar sin, táimid ag iarraidh a shoiléiriú go gciallaíonn "an tAire" sa gcás seo, an tAire Ealaíon, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta sa Stát seo, sna 26 contae, mar tá Aire Cultúir, Ealaíon agus Fóillíochta againn ó Thuaidh. Mar a tharlaíonn sé, is Aire de chuid Shinn Féin atá sa gcathaoir sin i láthair na huaire. Tá seo tábhachtach sa gcomhthéacs go gcaithfimid a bheith soiléir cén Aire atá i gceist againn insan Acht, mar go bhfuil foras teanga i bhfeidhm agus go mbíonn dhá Aire i gceist sa gcás sin agus mar go bhfuil an rialú agus an stiúradh atá á thabhairt do Fhoras na Gaeilge agus don Fhoras Teanga idir dhá Aire, an tAire Cultúir, Ealaíon agus Fóillíochta, Caral Ní Chuilin agus an tAire Ealaíon, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta sa taobh seo. Sin an fáth go bhfuil muid ag iarraidh go ndéanfar an leasú beag seo. Molaimid don Aire é a ghlacadh le haghaidh soiléireacht a thabhairt. De bharr go bhfuil caint níos deireannaí sa Bhille ar an Aire Ní Chuilin, ba chóir go dtógfaí sin san áireamh.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Sílim go bhfuil dhá rud i gceist anseo agus is é an chéad ceann ná An Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge. Baineann an straitéis leis an Stát seo ina bhfuil muid inár gcónaí, cé má thugann duine an Phoblacht uirthi nó ainm eile. Ní théann an straitéis isteach i ndlínse eile - sin Tuaisceart na hÉireann. Mar sin, chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé leis an bhforas, is é an dualgas a bheidh air ná an straitéis 20 bliain a threorú sna ceantair taobh amuigh de na ceantair Gaeltachta sa Stát seo. Maidir le Tuaisceart Éireann - tá aithne phearsanta agam ar an Aire Ní Chuilinn agus bíonn cruinnithe againn go rialta ar bhonn oifigiúil - tuigeann an tAire ansin céard atá á dhéanamh againn agus go mbaineann sé seo leis an dlínse ó Dheas. Maidir leis an Tuaisceart, tá a bpolasaithe féin acu. Tá Foras na Gaeilge ansiúd sa Tuaisceart ag tabhairt tacaíochta don pholasaí atá acu. Bhí mé i mBéal Feirste roinnt mhí ó shin nuair a d'fhógair an tAire scéim úr, scéím a chuaigh i bhfeidhm orm féin, Líofa. An cuspóir atá leis an scéim sin ná 1,000 duine a fháil i dTuaisceart Éireann a mbeidh sásta an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim agus a labhairt. Bhí mé ag caint leis an Aire coicís ó shin agus chuir mé ceist uirthi cé mar atá an scéim Líofa ag dul ar aghaidh agus dúirt sí liom go bhfuil breis agus 2,000 duine tar éis síneadh, cuid acu fiú sna póilíní sa Tuaisceart. Tuigeann muid cad atá ag dul ar aghaidh thuas ansin agus tuigeann an tAire agus an Foras caidé atá le déanamh anseo. Mar sin, chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé leis an straitéis 20 bliain, is orainn atá an fhreagracht. Sin an fáth nach féidir liom glacadh leis an moladh seo.
Dála an scéil, maidir lena ndúirt an Seanadóir maidir le aontú na tíre, ní shílim go bhfuil mórán daoine anseo nach n-aontódh leis. Bh'fhéidir nach ndéarfadh muid gur Poblachtánaigh muid, ach ní hionann sin agus a rá nach n-aontaíonn muid le aontú na tíre. Ach seo an rud atá indéanta agus atá praiticiúil ag an bpointe seo.
Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I agree with the Minister of State that it is important to cherish Constable Peadar Heffron, a Gaelic-speaking member of the PSNI who is currently recovering from injuries he suffered as a result of an attack by paramilitary elements.
I support amendment No. 2 because it draws attention to what I believe to be a defect in the Bill. There are aspects of the legislation which relate to the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the human rights of those who speak minority languages and a number of international treaties which the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and his predecessors negotiated on behalf of the country. I have received more correspondence in respect of the Bill than I have on any other issue since becoming a Member of the House. In that context, there is an amount of concern with regard to the removal of voting rights from people who live in Gaeltacht areas. On Second Stage, the Minister of State said that, as a result of the decision of the then Government in May 2001 to retain the existing status of Údarás na Gaeltachta, a regulatory impact assessment is not needed in respect of the legislation. I am of the view that the Bill changes things so fundamentally that such an assessment is required.
The Good Friday Agreement protects the rights of Irish speakers in Northern Ireland, including the good constable to whom both the Minister of State and I referred. If we remove language rights from Gaelic-speaking people in this State, will we be infringing the sections of the Agreement which relate to economic, social and cultural issues? The Good Friday Agreement states:
All participants recognise the importance of respect, understanding and tolerance in relation to linguistic diversity, including in Northern Ireland, the Irish language, Ulster-Scots and the languages of the various ethnic communities, all of which are part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland.
We all agree with this and it must be noted that we will welcome a member of the Orange Order to the House next week. I think I am No. 71 in the order of succession of those who have represented Trinity College at parliamentary level. The second person in that order, Bishop William Bedell, translated the Bible into Irish in the 1600s in the hope that people would be persuaded to join the Protestant churches. We will check with our guest from the Orange Order but I do not believe the bishop's exercise has been very successful. We have a long tradition of cherishing the Irish language. Will this be put at risk if the voting rights of people in Gaeltacht areas who speak the language are removed?
Another aspect of what was agreed in the Good Friday Agreement is that:
In the context of active consideration currently being given to the UK signing the Council of Europe Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, the British Government will in particular in relation to the Irish language, where appropriate and where people so desire it ... take resolute action to promote the language ... make provision for liaising with the Irish language community, representing their views to public authorities and investigating complaints ... [and] encourage the parties to secure agreement that this commitment will be sustained by a new Assembly in a way which takes account of the desires and sensitivities of the community.
The British and Irish Government are guarantors of those language rights. I am delighted the Minister of State discussed the vindication of those rights with his opposite number last week. Had the decision to abandon the regulatory impact assessment not been made, this matter would have formed part of that assessment. Approximately 96,000 people living in Gaeltacht areas speak the Irish language. How will not carrying out such an assessment protect freedoms we sought to protect, encourage and promote within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement?
There are international dimensions to this. I am of the view that the Bill should have been submitted to the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, who addressed the issue of human rights in Geneva last October. The Minister did not cover language rights but he gave a speech on human rights that has been widely praised. Those who speak minority languages have very strong human rights. They are protected on this island by the Good Friday Agreement and in international terms they are protected by the Council of Europe, UNESCO, the United Nations and so on. I would have welcomed it if a regulatory impact assessment had been carried out. This could have taken cognisance of views of the authorities in Northern Ireland, the Department of Justice and Equality - which is the vindicator of human rights in this country - and the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, particularly in the context of how Ireland interprets international agreements. We cannot just sign up to agreements to protect the Basques and so forth and presume these do not have relevance in the context of protecting minority languages in this country.
There will be a need, prior to Report Stage, to obtain an assessment from the Departments of Justice and Equality and Foreign Affairs in respect of this matter. Does the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, for example, see the withdrawal of voting rights from those who speak minority languages as having any implications in respect of agreements to which we might sign up at Geneva or elsewhere? What will the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, say on the next occasion on which he discusses Ireland's human rights record?
A formal view from the other parties to the Good Friday Agreement in respect of the human rights of Irish speakers in this country would be of value. Senator Ó Clochartaigh has raised a most important point. It was probably a mistake to decide that a regulatory impact assessment was not needed in respect of this most important legislation. Some 168 amendments have been tabled because people are so concerned with regard to this matter. The Minister of State is on record as saying the Bill would be passed quickly and with all-party agreement. Once people realised what it contained, the latter was never a possibility. We should now take the opposite route and consider the legislation on a line-by-line basis. In addition, we should seek the views of as many people as possible. I refer in this regard to the authorities in Northern Ireland, international human rights organisations and others.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Irish to follow. Le cois sin, tá buiséad an fhorais ag brath ar airgead ón Stát anseo agus airgead ón Aire nó an comhthionól sna Sé Contae. Tá buiséad an fhorais ag titim bliain i ndiaidh bliana. Dá bhrí sin - seo bun agus barr cur i bhfeidh an tAcht agus an Ghaeilge a shábháil - caithfidh airgead a bheith ar fáil leis na spriocanna atá sa straitéis agus an méid atá sa Bhille seo a chur i bhfeidhm agus an Ghaeilge a thógáil slán. Ní bheinn cinnte go bhfuil an buiséad ag an fhoras le sin a dhéanamh. Tuigim go huile agus go hiomlán go bhfuil ceist anseo faoi Éire aontaithe. Mar poblachtánach, creidim go láidir gur chóir dúinn, mar ionadaithe poiblí, gach iarracht a dhéanamh gach céim a ghlacadh leis an oileán a aontú. Ach ag an am céanna, cé go bhfuil baint ag an Ghaeilge le sin, caithfimid a bheith cúramach ó thaobh an Ghaeilge a fhorbairt taobh amuigh de na Gaeltachtaí.
Má fhágann muid an cúram ag eagraíocht a bhfuil faoi bhrú ó thaobh buiséad de, d'fhéadfaí deacrachtaí a chruthú. Ag an am céanna, ní bheadh an eagraíocht sin freagrach don Aire anseo go hiomlán ná don Oireachtas. Sin an fáth go bhfuil roinnt leasuithe istigh agam féin. Nílim ag fáil lochta ar bith ar an leasú atá istigh ag mo chomhleacaí, ach táim ag díriú airde ar an phointe sin. Creidim go láidir in eagraíocht de chuid an Stáit a chuireann na spriocanna atá sa Bhille seo i bhfeidhm, le cois na heagraisí eile, cosúil le Conradh na Gaeilge, Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge agus eile, a bhfuil cúram speisialta acu, ar nós imeachtaí . Tá obair baile déanta acu go dtí seo agus ba chóir go mbeadh siadsan in ann cuidiú a thabhairt don údarás na spriocanna éagsúla sin a chur if bhfeidhm. Sin an méid atá le rá agam ar seo.
Tuigim cad as a dtagann an leasú seo. Tuigim go mbeidh an tAire Stáit agus an tAire Deenihan ag plé leis na hAirí ar an choiste chomhthionóil atá ar siúl idir an Stát agus na Sé Contae. Tá sé tábhachtach go dtabharfaidh an Stát seo gach tacaíocht agus comhairle don Aire agus do na hinstitiúdí sa Tuaisceart le cuidiú a thabhairt dóibh straitéis a chur i bhfeidhm sna Sé Contae leis an Ghaeilge a fhorbairt agus a neartú. Ba chóir dúinne sa Stát seo, trí Fhoras na Gaeilge chomh maith, gach tacaíocht a thabhairt é sin a dhéanamh. Creidim go láidir go dtiocfaidh linn, i cúig nó sé nó ocht mbliain eile, Gaeltacht a bheith againn in nDoire, Gaeltacht a bheith againn i mBéal Feirste agus Gaeltacht a bheith againn in áiteacha eile sna Sé Contae. Tá súil agam go dtarlóidh sin. Tá eagraisí iontach maith dílis don Ghaeilge bunaithe sna Sé Contae. Tá baint agam féin le cuid acu agus bím ag caint leo go minic. Tá súil agam, go dtig linn, tríd an tacaíocht atá ar fáil d'Fhoras naGaeilge, an tacaíocht sin a thabhairt dóibh. Ach má daoine ag brath ar Fhoras na Gaeilge na spriocanna seo a chur i bhfeidhm amach as an buiséad atá aige faoi láthair, measaim go dtiocfadh le sin fiú níos mó brú a chur ar na pobail sna Sé Contae, de bhrí an buiséad atá ag an bhForas leagtha amach agus aontaithe agus de bhrí nach bhuil cuma air, de réir an Bhille seo, go mbeidh aon bhuiséad breise ar fáil. Cruthóidh sin deacrachtaí níos sa Stát seo, ach sna Sé Contae chomh maith. Caithfimid é sin a ghlacadh ar bord.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Shíl mé gur tháinig mé isteach anseo inniu le caint faoi Bhille na Gaeltachta, ach cloisim go leor faoi phoblachtánachas. Bhí mise i Rann na Feirste samhradh amháin ag fanacht i teach ansin. Bhi an Cairdinéal Ó Fiach sa teach céanna liom. Tháinig deartháir fear an tí isteach sa teach agus dúirt sé: "I am a republican to the hilt." D'fhreagair a dheartháir: "Aye, a bacchanalian republican." Is iomaí cineál poblachtánach atá againn sa tír seo, ach tá tír ghrá ag gach duine sa tír agus tá grá don teanga againn go léir sa Teach seo.
An cheist is mó ná an dóigh leis na Seanadóirí go n-oibreoidh na limistéir pleanála teanga Ghaeltachta? An coincheap nó an smaoineamh maith é? An bhfuil siad sásta tacú leis an Aire Stáit, an chéad Aire ó 1956 anuas a bhí sásta Bille Gaeltachta a thabhairt isteach sa Teach seo? Feicim go bhfuil 168 leasuithe molta ag Seanadóirí. Ní molaim é sin. Bheinn níos sásta dá mbeadh 20 nó 30 leasuithe ann, mar thiocfadh linn ansin iad a phlé. Cé nach bhfuilim sásta faoin méid leasuithe atá ann, aontaím go bhfuil an ceart ag duine ar bith leasú a mholadh.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Táimid ag caint faoi leasú Uimh. 2 anois.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Rinne daoine eile ráitis. Sin an méid atá le moladh agam ag an am seo. Glacaim go bhfuil muid ag caint anois faoi leasú Uimh. 2. Caithfimid tacú leis an Aire Stáit, nó gheobhaidh an teanga bás i roinnt Gaeltachtaí. Aontaím leis an Aire Stáit ar an ábhar seo.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. It was the Minister of State who raised the issue of us all being republican. He said we may not all be nationalist, but we are all republican. I am not convinced that is the case here in this House. I agree the Minister of State is and Senator D'Arcy has put it on the record a number of times that he is a republican from Haggardstown, so we do not doubt his integrity.
David Norris (Independent)
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One can have integrity without being a republican.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The point I am making is that I do not doubt the integrity of what he says. However, that is neither here nor there with regard to these amendments. The amendments we are discussing here seek to provide clarity for all of us. As the Minister of State knows, this Bill has implications for Foras na Gaeilge. It is integral to the working of that body, which is all-Ireland in its architecture, nature and work. Therefore, it makes sense that when the Bill speaks of "the Minister" and when we have an island with two different jurisdictions - whether we like that or not - and where we have two Ministers with responsibility for the language, North and South, we clarify which Minister we mean. Part of the Bill has implications for what is an all-island organisation. All amendment No. 2 seeks to do is to ensure that when we talk about "the Minister", we mean in this State. The other amendment, No. 3, seeks to clarify that when the Bill speaks of " the Minister in the North" it means the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure in the Northern Assembly. That is all these amendments seek to do. There is no hidden agenda. It is simple, they seek to provide clarity.
Senator D'Arcy raised concerns with regard to the number of amendments tabled on this Bill. That is outrageous. Senators are entitled to table as many amendments as they think necessary. I remind the Senator that many Irish language organisations have lobbied all of us, parties and individuals, on their genuine concerns and issues. While there is much in this Bill that they and we support, there is much about which we have concerns and do not support. In that case, this is the forum in which to table amendments and tease out the issues. It is irrelevant to me whether we have ten or 3,000 amendments.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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What is important is to have a proper and thorough debate on the Bill. It is a silly point to focus on the number of amendments.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I find it difficult to understand why the Minister cannot accept the amendments when all they seek to do is to provide clarity.
David Norris (Independent)
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Go raibh maith agat. Gabh mo leithscéal. Níl an Gaeilge comh flúirseach agam leis an Aire nó na Seanadóirí a bhí ag caint as Gaeilge cúpla nóiméad ó shin ach ba mhaith liom cúpla punc a chur roimh Seanad Éireann anois agus cúpla focal a rá ar son scoil násiúnta Inis Meáin. Ceapaim go bhfuil oideachas an thábhachtach-----
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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That has nothing to do with the amendment.
David Norris (Independent)
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I think it has. Anyway, I will lead the House there gradually.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Tá Gaeilge an mhaith ag an Seanadóir Norris.
David Norris (Independent)
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With regard to the general technique of the debate, I am a realist-----
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 le do thoil, a Sheanadóir.
David Norris (Independent)
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I know, but I have hardly finished the sentence. I am entitled to do that. I got as far as the word "punc", which has a series of different meanings including full stop. Any speaker is entitled to arrive at the full stop before being guillotined. Other speakers on both sides have spoken about the nature of the Bill and the nature of the amendments. As far as I am concerned people have a right to table as many amendments as they want. Many of the amendments are substantial and well intentioned, but I have no doubt whatsoever that there is also a war of attrition going on. That is real politics and the reason is because people are dissatisfied with what is in the Bill. It is a perfectly legitimate political tactic to conduct a war of attrition. In the old days one used to be able to filibuster in this House but now we are rationed in the way in which we can filibuster.
Coming to the substance of the amendments it is interesting because on one side one could maintain that the attitude adopted by Sinn Féin is almost partitionist because it is separating the two but on the other hand it seems to me that there is a good practical reason for that so I approve of the pragmatic nature of it. It appears to me that the more clarity one can get into the Bill the better.
We raised questions of education and language, in particular giving a regulatory test. Senator Barrett raised the important point concerning other languages. We must ensure that we protect our languages in the legislation. It is important that right at the start we would make the point that without education we are banjaxed.
I have been to the Aran Islands. I know the situation there. I draw this school in particular to the Minister's attention. An amelioration was given whereby special circumstances were accepted that the level for a second teacher was eight pupils. In Inis Meáin the population fluctuates and it is just below the required level. It will be back up again in September. There is a second teacher there. If she takes early retirement, which is fair enough as she can do it, as it will not be any skin off her nose, but the second teacher might never come back. That is a school the Minister knows well because it won second place in the Ericsson national science competition. It is fantastic for a tiny school on an offshore island to win a national award. I say "Well done" to it. We must encourage and foster such schools. There are special circumstances on those islands and they must be looked after. It got second place in the Galway county heritage awards. That is wonderful. The Department issued a report which was lyrical in its praise of the school. It said that the music programme presented at the school was both comprehensive and motivational. It said that the development of pupils' music skills, which includes instrumental music, singing and musical literacy is comprehensive.
I will finish on this point. This is the island that inspired people such as Pádraig Pearse, Eoin MacNeill and Eoghan O'Growney who has the honour of being mentioned in James Joyce's Ulysses. I urge the Minister to please consider my request. I will write to him on the matter if I may because I can feel the gong coming - the dulcimer is in the hand of the Acting Chairman.
I did manage by devious means to sneak in what is a very important matter. I am sure other Senators will raise the issue. There may be a more appropriate place to raise it. I did look for one. I will end on this point. Perhaps I might have guidance as to whether I could raise the matter again on amendment No. 65. If not, perhaps some of my colleagues could do so. I have another meeting to attend.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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We will deal with the matter when we come to amendment No. 65.
David Norris (Independent)
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I hope the Minister will take my point on board.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Tuigim. We cannot legislate for China in this Parliament.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Do you want the Queen to sign it as well?
3:00 am
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Irish to follow.
Táimid ag iarraidh go mbeidh sin soiléir sa Bille sa chaoi is nach mbeidh aon easaontú amach anseo.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Tá mé ag éisteacht leis an méid atá le rá ach dá ndéanfaí sin, chaithfí é a dhéanamh freisin mar gheall ar North-South cooperation in enterprise agus waterways. Scríobhadh síos i ndlí an Aontais Eorpaigh go mbeadh ceangal Thuaidh-Theas agus le Sasan le haghaidh energy. Dá mbeadh cumhacht ag an Aire sa Bhille, ba cheart an chumhacht sin a chur i ngach Bille.
James Heffernan (Labour)
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Ba mhaith liom pointe beag a dhéanamh. It is interesting that we are debating amendments Nos. 2 and 3 which seek to cement the partition of the island. They come from Sinn Féin. Not too long ago its members were up in arms over Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution. It is interesting, therefore, that they are trying to do this.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, the Senator was not listening to what we had to say.
James Heffernan (Labour)
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I agree with what previous speakers said. We cannot make laws in this House for other jurisdictions. We must be sensible about this. We have debated the amendments for long enough. It is time for the Minster of State to respond and for us to move on.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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A number of points have been made. I want to respond, in particular, to Senator David Norris in respect of his interest in and concern for the scoil on Inishmaan. The last time I was there it was a very pleasant occasion. I was on the island to attended a showing of "The Cripple of Inishmaan".
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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While I have no direct responsibility for the school on Inishmaan, I will convey the Senator's comments to the relevant Department, an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna.
D'iarr an Seanadóir Sean Barrett an bhfuil seasamh bunreachtúil ag an Bhille seo. He asked if it was constitutional and mentioned the Department of Justice and Law Reform. Like all other Bills, the Bill was circulated to all Departments and responses were received in due course. In addition, to copperfasten our stand, we referred the Bill to the Attorney General and there were no difficulties in that regard either. Therefore, from all the expert opinions available to me from the Department of Justice and Law Reform and the Ard Aigne, the Attorney General, the Bill is constitutional.
On the North-South issue, in the wake of the Anglo-Irish Agreement Foras na Gaeilge is responsible in this jurisdiction for promoting the Irish language outside Gaeltacht areas. It also has responsibility for fostering the Irish language in Northern Ireland. When the Bill was published, as a matter of courtesy, a copy was sent to the relevant Minister and Department in Northern Ireland. We do not have to do these things. I do not interfere with the Minister in Northern Ireland in the excellent work she is doing, apart from attending a number of events in Northern Ireland, at which I am always welcome. I attended the seoladh of the "Líofa" plan that I meantioned previously, under which the Minister in Northern Ireland wants to have 1,000 people signed up to learn Irish. Already the figure has exceeded 2,000. Good luck to her and we will give her all the support we can.
Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill should be aware that I have been to a number of places in Northern Ireland. I have been to Carntogher which could be a Gaeltacht area. However, I have no jurisdiction to declare it as such. Having said that, I have great admiration for what is being done there. It is only a number of months since I was in Maynooth, County Kildare, in a hotel adjacent to the seminary, in which Glór na nGael awarded prizes for the best effort made by any community north or south of the Border. I was very proud, as an Ulsterman, to give it to Strabane and Carntogher the previous year. We must give all those involved all the support we can.
In terms of meetings with the Minister in Northern Ireland, she has a perfect understanding of what we are doing. I admire what she is doing and vice versa. I know what my jurisdictionis and she knows hers, but we have the same aim - progressing the Irish language. Foras na Gaeilge has €21 million at its disposal this year for the promotion of the language, North and South. We contribute 75% of the fund. The Northern Government - Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh might like to call it "Westminster" - provides the remaining 25%.
We are not depriving any citizen of any right. Nuair a bunaíodh Údarás na Gaeltachta in 1979. As a result of the Act, we gave the people of the Gaeltacht the opportunity to vote. In the case of the new Údarás, there will be no direct voting. I gave the reasons for this. We will save €500,000 and so on. This does not apply to amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 110, but the discussion had become so broad I had to make a number of points. The right to vote was incorporated in an Act. The Bill, when enacted, will reconstitute and restructure Údarás na Gaeltachta. We have decided that there will be no provision for an election, but we are not depriving people of anything. If we were to say there would be no more county council, Seanad or Dáil elections-----
David Norris (Independent)
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They are on the point of doing that. According to the Taoiseach, that is exactly what he is at.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The point I want to make, if the Senator will listen to me, if that if we wanted to do this, we would have to go to the people for a constitutional imprimatur. In fact, we intend to promote language rights. We will give people more opportunities, help and advice in that regard. I do not want to repeat what I said here last week.
I do not know what a republican is, but I was born in this jurisdiction. I speak the two official languages to the best of my ability. Chomh maith agus is féidir liom.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I salute the flag of the country any time I see it. My allegiance is to what is represented by the flag behind the Cathaoirleach's Chair. I also recognise the courts of the country. They are constitutionally entitled to do what they are doing through the will of the people. I recognise the role of the Garda Síochána and Óglaigh na hÉireann. If I were to join the Army tomorrow, it is Óglaigh na hÉireann I would join, not that it or any other army would have me at this stage.
Diarmuid WilsonDavid Norris (Independent)
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It is getting rid of people anyway.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I hope to die in this country. I do not know where that leaves me. What else do I have to do to be considered a republican? Can anyone enlighten me? Cad eile atá le déanamh agam?
Incidentally, not only do we support the promotion of the Irish language in Northern Ireland, we also support the Ulster Scots. I have attended some of their functions in Northern Ireland. On the last occasion the Scottish Pipe Band Association presented certificates to young boys and young girls who had learned the bagpipes in Northern Ireland. I asked it to extend into activities into County Donegal, in which there is a tradition of having pipe bands. There is an Ulster Scots interpretative centre in my constituency, in Monreagh, east Donegal, and it is an eye opener. It outlines the history of the Ulster Scots dating back to the time of the plantations. In fact, eight or nine American Presidents had roots in that part of our heritage, of which they were so proud. There are former Presidents with roots in this part of the country, but there are also McKinleys and Buchanans, to name but a few. John McCain has cousins in Convoy, east Donegal. I do not know if I am allowed to name constituents here, but he has cousins there. It is a very proud tradition and I want to bring all of them together, but as far as the Bill is concerned, it will only apply in the State. Anything the Minister in Northern Ireland can do is her responsibility. I will give her all the support I can. We sit down regularly together to discuss these issues. Cuireadh cóipeanna den Bhille suas agus táimid ag obair as lámh a chéile, ag comhoibriú, agus sin an fáth that I cannot accept an leasú seo.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tá cuid mhaith ráite ag an Aire Stáit ansin arís agus glacaim leis an méid atá sé ag rá ach tá mé ag dul ar ais chuig an phointe dlí a bhaineann leis seo. Bíonn comhráití ar siúl idir an Aire Stáit agus an Aire Cultúir, Ealaíon agus Fóillíochta sa Sé Chontae agus tá caidreamh an-mhaith eatarthu. Tá an tAire ó Thuaidh in ann athrú agus tá Airí in ann teacht i bhfeidhm nach mbeadh chomh báúil don Ghaeilge agus atá an tAire faoi láthair agus caithfimid bheith cúramach nuair atáimid ag dréachtáil reachtaíochta go bhfuil na ceisteanna áirithe sin san áireamh againn.
Táimid ag plé leasuithe Uimh, 2, 3, 110. Tarraingím aird an Aire Stáit ar leasú Uimh. 110, a bhaineann le leathanach 23, alt 10. Cuirtear a leanas in iúl ansin: "Féadfaidh aon eagraíocht laistigh de phobal lena mbaineann fo-alt (2), agus a measfaidh Foras na Gaeilge í a bheith ionadaitheach don phobal lena mbaineann, plean Gaeilge a ullmhú, le cúnamh ó Fhoras na Gaeilge, ar plean é a bheidh le cur i ngníomh ag an bpobal sin, agus an plean sin a chur faoi bhráid an Aire."
Tá mé ag iarraidh ceist shimplí a chur. An bhfuil soiléiriú faighte ón Ard-Aighne maidir leis an bhfo-alt seo? De réir mo thuisceana, tá próiseas comhchinnteoireachta ag baint le Foras na Gaeilge. Cé go bhfuil Foras na Gaeilge ó Thuaidh ag feidhmiú as cur i bhfeidhm cúrsaí teanga sa Sé Chontae, tá Foras na Gaeilge ó Dheas ag feidhmiú sa 26 Contae maidir le cur chun cinn na Gaeilge taobh amuigh de na Gaeltachtaí. Níl dhá fhoras ann, áfach, tá Foras na Gaeilge ann, le bord amháin agus tá an bord sin freagrach don dá Aire comhionann. Tá mé ag iarraidh soiléiriú faoi sin agus sin an fáth go bhfuilimid ag moladh na leasuithe beag seo, nach mbeadh aon idirdhealú ann agus go mbeimis clúdaithe ó thaobh an dlí de. Ba mhaith liom soiléiriú a fháil faoi sin agus sin an fáth go bhfuilimid ag moladh agus go mbeimid ag brú na leasuithe seo.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Chuaigh an Bille chuig na Ranna go léir, an Roinn Dlí agus Cirt agus Comhionannais san áireamh, agus tháinig an Bille ó Oifig an Ard-Aighne. Níl mise in ann barántas níos fearr ná sin a chur in iúl don Teach. Tháinig sé ó Oifig an Ard-Aighne agus má tá an tArd-Aighne ag rá go bhfuil sé bunreachtúil, glacaim go fonnmhar leis go bhfuil sé bunreachtúil. Sin an fáth nach féidir liom glacadh leis an leasú seo.
Sean Barrett (Independent)
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Go raibh maith agat. We are invoking the Anglo-Irish Agreement on this side of the House because of the traditions in Northern Ireland whereby Nationalists would discriminated against, not least in the Minister of State's adjoining city of Derry, and disgracefully so, and those rights were put in. I never thought I would be invoking it on behalf of Irish language speakers in this jurisdiction but it is there and we will use it. It was there to protect the minority within Northern Ireland. I would oppose any legislation to deprive 96,000 Unionist people in this State of a vote or 96,000 Nationalist people in Northern Ireland of a vote.
The Minister of State said he sent it to the other Departments. The last Attorney General outing on this, as the Minister of State, will know, was to advise that the Donegal South-West by-election was a discretionary item, which the Government could hold. It lost heavily in the High Court under Mr. Justice Nicholas Kearns. The Attorney General is not necessarily infallible in these matters. I would still appreciate an impact assessment as well.
The Minister of State mentioned the €500,000 the Government is saving by not having elections and I would ask him to reflect on this. Our GDP per head is approximately 11 times that of India. There is nobody in India saying "let us cancel the elections, they cost too much money". Democracy at our level of GDP per head should not be cancelled on money grounds. How will we hold our faces up in the international community because we cancelled an election to save €500,000? I utterly dispute that figure. No provision was made in the Estimates for the Minister of State's Department in the past two years for any election to Údarás na Gaeltachta. The last time an election was held, the figure was €300,000. The Minister of State's Department had plenty of opportunities to hold Údarás na Gaeltachta elections jointly with the presidential election or with referendums at minimal cost. Therefore, I dispute the €500,000 cost that has been put forward as the reason for not having these elections and that is what is causing concern.
If the Minister of State was to say the Department made the mistake and we will run the Údarás na Gaeltachta elections with the referendums that are pending, we would all join with him in this House to support an teanga Gaeilge, because it is that to which we are dedicated, North and South. He has been very badly advised to cancel elections to save money. Rinne the Office of the Attorney General, Oifig an Ard-Aighne, botún an-mhór maidir leis an cheist dheireanach a cuireadh whether voting is discretionary or whether people have rights. These people have language rights and those are enshrined. If we look to the UNESCO declaration of linguistic rights, all language communities have the right to organise and manage their own resources to ensure the use of their language for all functions in society.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Níl an Seanadóir ag labhairt faoi na leasuithe.
Sean Barrett (Independent)
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The Minister's advisers tell him they do not have them but we are asking for court cases, as in the Pearse Doherty case, if we persist in denying people their voting rights, and we will have to use Northern Ireland or international obligations to defend the voting rights of those citizens.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is not speaking to the amendment.
David Norris (Independent)
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I strongly support what Senator Barrett said and he said it with passion and dignity. He is standing up for the principle of democracy. The Minister of State is right in one sense. It is not a vote in a national election.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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That is outside the scope of the amendment.
David Norris (Independent)
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This is what has been talked about just two minutes ago.
David Norris (Independent)
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The Minister and Senator Barrett addressed it and it lies at the heart of the dispute between us.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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We will never finish if we do not move-----
David Norris (Independent)
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I am moving on from that, if the Senator would allow me.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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You got your dealing trick earlier about Inis Meáin.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should address comments through the Chair.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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The Senator got his dealing trick and he should let matters lie and move on to amendment.
David Norris (Independent)
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The Minister is a most gentlemanly person.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should stick to the amendment.
David Norris (Independent)
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He is a man who speaks beautifully and eloquently in both English and Irish and he had me with him until he mentioned the bagpipes.
David Norris (Independent)
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The definition of a gentleman is one who knows how to play the bagpipes but refrains from doing so. Had he mentioned the uilleann pipes he would have had me with him completely. When he went on to talk about Ulster Scots, I was completely and absolutely gone, and I do not give a tuppenny damn about Wilson, McKinley, Calvin Coolidge, Taft or any of them from wherever they came. I will tell the Minister a matter of fact. Ulster Scots is not a language; it is a dialect. One might as well protect the way they speak in Leicestershire, Cornwall, Cork, Corca Dhuibhne or anywhere else. It is not a language.
David Norris (Independent)
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It is not a language, it is just a fudge. I used to get this twaddle sent down to me about Ulster Scots which was written down. It is a dialect, not a language. Talk about me massaging things. The cute boyos up there are massaging things to get parity with Irish language for a thing that is wonderful, lovely and a part of culture, but it is a dialect, not a language.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. This Bill is significant in the history of the language, our State and country. The purpose of the Bill is to save the language. I hope there is agreement across the House on that. It is not just to save údarás elections. If údarás elections were to save the language, then clearly they have failed because the number of Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht has decreased from 90,000 down to 23,000. I would be supporting údarás and údarás elections. It is not that there will not be an údarás.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It is not democratic. There is no democracy.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Democracy does not necessary save the language.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Democracy does not work. Is that what the Senator is saying?
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Democracy does not save the language.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Will we scrap the Seanad now as well?
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Democracy did not save the economy either, but we do not do away with it.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The people in the Gaeltacht areas are represented by councillors elected in local elections and by Members in both Houses of the Oireachtas, the Dáil and the Seanad. They also have a European vote. We have to say this clearly.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, the amendments are not about Údarás elections. They are very specific.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We are discussing the Gaeltacht versus the State.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is time we look at everything and ask whether what we are doing will serve or make a difference.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Will it make a difference in terms of saving the language? An examination of the evidence on údarás would be damning. Údarás has not been a failure by any means but its elections have not made a difference to saving the language.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, Ulster Scots is a language not a dialect. It is recognised in Europe and internationally as a language. The Minister is correct to include it as a language in the North of Ireland. The Ulster Scots society would be offended otherwise.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I have listened with interest to the debate on this amendment for the past hour. Speakers appear to be scoring points instead of dealing with the amendment. I remind the House that I have allowed 2 hours and 30 minutes for a debate on the Bill today, a further four to five hours on Committee Stage next week and a similar amount of time on Report Stage the following week. I ask Members to focus their minds on the time available to deal with the Bill and thank the Minister of State for agreeing to come to the House during these times.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Leader's comments. I had hoped to make a contribution on the issue of údarás elections but I felt precluded from doing so because they were not being dealt with under these amendments. We appear to have engaged in a wider debate. One of the difficulties of debating Bills on Committee Stage is that we may not reach important amendments. We are considering whether to give powers to a Minister outside this jurisdiction to engage in what is happening in this jurisdiction.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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That is essentially what the amendments infer.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 3 refers to the "Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure in the Northern Assembly". Amendment No. 2 qualifies the definition of "Gaeltacht" with the words "in this State". The amendments aim at extending the role of Foras na Gaeilge across the island.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I have serious qualms about the proposal, as our spokesperson will explain at a later stage. My party will not be supporting the amendments.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I will be pressing the amendments but it is disappointing that Fianna Fáil is not supporting them. It is not helpful to misrepresent what they purport to do. Senator Ó Clochartaigh and I have already pointed out that the amendments simply provide clarity on who shall be the responsible Minister for the purpose of this Bill. The responsible Minister is the Minister in this State but -----
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Senator to listen to my argument.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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We do not need to reminded by the inclusion of unnecessary language.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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I am putting the question on the amendment.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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If the Senator opened his ears -----
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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----- he might understand what I am saying. It might be news to Senator Mooney but Foras na Gaeilge already has an all-Ireland remit.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I am fully aware of that but in the context of this Bill -----
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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We want to ensure that when we speak -----
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator want it in the context of this Bill?
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It is not partitionist. It accepts the fact that two Ministers on the island have responsibility for much of what Foras na Gaeilge does. These amendments simply reflect that fact. They do not give the Minister in the North any powers in this jurisdiction. To say that is to completely misrepresent the amendments.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister of State to clarify this issue. With all due respect to Senator Cullinane, what he is saying about the role of Foras na Gaeilge is absolutely correct. Is it not true, however, that Foras na Gaeilge is also obliged to take account of Ministers from the Northern Assembly in respect of any matter pertaining to the Irish language?
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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They are already directly involved in Foras na Gaeilge. My colleague will argue that it is questionable whether Foras na Gaeilge should be given an enhanced role in this legislation because as it stands it is giving a Northern Irish Minister direct influence over legislation which does not originate in that jurisdiction without a quid pro quo in that the Southern Minister has no involvement in what goes on in the Northern jurisdiction. Correct me if I am wrong but that is the logic of these amendments. They are somewhat disingenuous.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Senator Mooney is being disingenuous. He should speak to his own colleagues, such as Deputy Ó Cuív.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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At the risk of repeating myself, Foras na Gaeilge has an all-Ireland constitution but it involves two Ministers. The responsibility of Foras na Gaeilge is to promote Irish and Ulster Scots on the island of Ireland. The Minister in Northern Ireland has the responsibility of promoting the Irish language in any way she likes in Northern Ireland. She does not have to listen to me or to anyone else, although we hold regular meetings to discuss these matters and keep each other informed. As I noted earlier, a copy of the Bill has been sent as a courtesy to the Minister in Northern Ireland, Carál Ní Chuilín, MLA. Foras na Gaeilge also has a responsibility for promoting Irish in this State. This Bill deals with this State and has nothing to do with Northern Ireland.
Foras na Gaeilge is a dual purpose organisation. The Minister there looks after the affairs of the Irish language in Northern Ireland and we do our thing down here. It is Gaeilge is financed by North and South. We contribute 75% of its resources and Northern Ireland contributes 25%. We hold regular meetings and I applaud what is happening in Northern Ireland. I congratulated the Minister on the success of Líofa 2015, a new scheme which aimed at signing 1,000 people up to the Irish language but has already exceeded 2,000 people. I have visited a number of places in Northern Ireland where Irish is spoken and which offer a great example to us down here, such as Carntogher and Strabane. They are doing great work and we are trying to do our thing down here. There are two separate states and this Bill applies to this State. We are not going to interfere up there and they will not interfere down here. We have the same aim but we recognise the political reality on this island.
As regards the constitutionality of the Bill, which we discussed before Senator Mooney entered the Chamber, it did the rounds of all the Departments, including the Department of Justice and Equality.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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It was submitted to the Attorney General more than once. Unlike certain Senators, I am just a layperson who does not have a detailed knowledge of the law -----
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I was not questioning the Bill's constitutionality.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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----- but I have no hesitation in recommending that the House be guided by the advice of the Attorney General. I will not second guess any Attorney General and that is why I cannot accept the amendment.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator Cummins that much of the debate has focused on issues unrelated to the amendments. It is important that we focus on the amendments go mbeidh an deis againn plé sonrach a dhéanamh orthu. Sin an fáth go bhfuil na leasuithe ann, go mbeimid chomh sonrach agus is féidir.
I dtaca leis an leasú seo, the amendments we have submitted demonstrate our fundamental opposition to giving a function to Foras na Gaeilge in deciding on networks, Irish language plans or service towns in this State. Irish to follow.
Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I share the concerns of Senator Ó Clochartaigh in regard to expenses. They arise in two ways in respect of the savings alleged under the Bill. The claim is that there will be €100,000 per year savings in expenses by cutting the size of the board from 20 to 12 people, that is, a total of €8,500 per head. Is there any evidence that the existing elected board members of Údarás na Gaeltachta were involved in excessive use of expense accounts? Was the matter ever referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General? Will the replacement county councillors be less onerous when it comes to expenses? Many county councillors do not have a reputation for going easy on expenses. How was this figure comprised? If it was a matter of concern, why was it not examined before now?
The claim is to save €2 million over ten years. This is made up of €100,000 in running expenses plus two elections costing €500,000 each. However, the elections have never cost €500,000. I examined the Estimates for the Department. The last election cost €300,000 and that was five years ago. Inflation might be at a rate of approximately 10%. I am unsure where the 66% increase in the cost of running Gaeltacht elections has occurred since the last time they were held. If the Department was concerned about the high cost of elections for the údarás, did it ever seek to run them in conjunctions with other elections? These numbers should have been scrutinised elsewhere in the Houses to ensure they stand up.
I am concerned that travel expenses within the Department are rising rapidly. There is a danger that whatever we save by abolishing or reducing the number of elected people on that board from 20 to 12 people would be offset by the rapidly increasing travel and subsistence budget of the bureaucracy in the Department. I understand it has increased by 23% this year. Would the savings ever have accrued to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, or the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, under this section?
The high cost of language studies arises under this section. Senator Ó Domhnaill referred to figures of €25,000 and €650,000 for implementation. If people are already speaking Irish spontaneously in return for some voting rights, then let us accept that as a gift and a bargain and continue to promote and encourage the spoken language. The economics of this legislation need some scrutiny.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I echo the concern expressed by my colleague, Senator Ó Domhnaill. The Irish language groups that have contacted us indicated that there is considerable vagueness surrounding the Bill in one area relating to expenses. I have no wish to dwell too much on the reason the Minister of State wishes to abolish the elections. That will arise under a different amendment, which is questionable anyway. I am keen to hear the Minister of State's justification for it.
My understanding is that in the case of the board of Údarás, the saving in expenses incurred by each member over a five year period will amount to between €400,000 and €450,000. The Minister of State has not indicated exactly how much money will be given in terms of the resources. Further, he suggested that the Bill is budget neutral. I have no wish to labour the point but it seems that the Minister of State will expect many local language organisations in the various designated areas to fund this themselves. He has given no indication of how it will be funded. There is a need for the Minister of State to explain to the House exactly how he will resource it. The explanation seems to be altogether inadequate based on the figures given by Senator Ó Domhnaill in respect of one small part of what will be a larger designated area in An Spidéal.
The outcome of the decision of the Minister of State represents an issue as well. I realise this is scoring a political point and I make no apology for it. Based on the current configuration, the five members to be appointed from the local authorities will almost certainly come from the Government parties. This is because the councils in the areas currently designated under the údarás are all controlled by either Fine Gael or a combination of Fine Gael and the Labour Party. There is nothing in the Bill to indicate the view of the Minister of State on how these councils will nominate people. Will the Minister of State introduce a proportionality clause? This could operate in the same way as for elected members of local authorities who are nominated to regional assemblies. That system is based on proportionality rather than a majority. In other words there is a grouping of four councillors per member.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That may be more relevant to a different section.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I fully accept that but this is in the context of the whole question and it relates to the savings the Minster of State indicated will materialise as a direct result of the ending of democratic elections. Subsequent appointments will be made and I simply wish to make that point. My core question was also raised by Senator Ó Domhnaill and Senator Barrett. Will the Minister of State clarify exactly how much this will cost and where the money will come from? On the basis of the figures provided by the Minister of State so far, it would appear to be altogether inadequate.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Irish to follow.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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At 12 noon on Tuesday, 3 July 2012.