Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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As the Minister of State will be aware, today we spoke about section 39 workers. I was delighted to have my Topical Issue matter chosen this evening - I thank the Ceann Comhairle - because we need a resolution of this before Tuesday. We need to make sure section 39 workers do not strike next week. I will make a few points that were raised by me and others today.

As the Minister of State will be aware, the strike is a result of pay disparity between front-line staff employed by State-funded healthcare services and equivalent staff who work for State-funded community health and social care services. The growing pay gap of between 10% and 15% has resulted in a recruitment and retention crisis, which is blocking thousands of children and adults from accessing critical mental health, disability, homelessness and addiction services. I have met every section 39 worker in Carlow who contacted me. These dedicated section 39 workers who are employed in voluntary, not-for-profit healthcare organisations have undergone the same rigorous training and education as their counterparts in section 38 organisations and HSE workers. They work under the same conditions, face the same challenges and shoulder the same responsibility but do not get the same rewards.

I am always mindful when I single out particular services. I am on the board of Holy Angels day care centre, I have met BEAM Services, the Delta Centre, the Irish Wheelchair Association and all the other services. I can attest to their commitment and dedication. They love their work and they are dedicated. While I thank the Minister of State for coming tonight, I am a little disappointed that the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, did not. My question, which needs to go back to the Minister, is this: what additional payments will be allocated by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform? As the Minister of State will be aware, there was a 5% rejection by the section 39 workers.

We have to find a way to avert this strike. We have to get everyone around the table at the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. What commitment can the Government give as regards funding? We need to get this resolved. We need a commitment from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to ensure this does not go ahead. Tonight is the last Dáil sitting before Tuesday, when the strike could happen. I am asking the Minister of State to get a resolution of this, to go back to the Departments, and to talk to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, to get a commitment so that this will be resolved.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Murnane O'Connor for raising this matter. I am taking this Topical Issue matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe. What Deputy Murnane O'Connor is saying resonates with everything that has been said in the debate here for the past two hours or so. The issues are very serious which is why we had a full and extensive debate on it here. We are all conscious of the notice for strike action next Tuesday. Something like that always helps to concentrate the mind and I want to say before I go any further that the views being expressed in the debate here earlier, and by Deputy Murnane O'Connor here now, will be personally conveyed to the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, by me, and that this further debate is now taking place here in the Dáil as we conclude business today.

I note the Deputy is asking about the retention of workers in section 39 organisations and I would like to make a general comment on the matter of retention of staff. The economy is performing incredibly well under the present Government. Unemployment is at a record low level. Of course, in such a situation, it gives rise to a retention challenge across all sectors in the current climate of full employment. Every employer in the country will tell you that they have a problem recruiting and retaining staff as people have more opportunities in a strong economy than they would otherwise have.

I will now turn to the issue of the section 39 agencies issue. Section 39 of Health Act 2004 allows for private sector organisations to provide services for members of the public. These are known colloquially as section 39 organisations. I would add that the workers concerned in these organisations are not public servants but are employees of private organisations. Their legal employment relationship is with the private sector employer. Such matters are primarily for the individual employers and employees as part of that relationship.

The section 39 organisations receive grant funding from Tusla and the HSE, provided through the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Department of Health. This funding is used to service payroll and other organisational costs. The funding for section 39 organisations has increased considerably in recent years and is now in excess of €1 .6 billion, having increased by over 60% since 2018. This demonstrates this Government’s commitment to service delivery in this sector.

During most of that time, since 2018 to 2021, or thereabouts, there was little or no inflation yet over that period there was a 60% increase in funding to those organisations. That has to be acknowledged and is where most of these negotiations must take place. The process of engagement with these organisations in recent years has been very extensive. In 2018 and in 2020 there was engagement with the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and in recent months, in respect of various groups in the community and voluntary sector, an agreement was reached on a 5% settlement for community employment scheme workers in March. Agreed processes were put in place to address pay rates for section 39 workers. That has been agreed in many places. I understand that 60% of qualifying organisations took part in these processes and that pay increases were provided for in stages following an audit and verification exercise.

A range of engagements have taken place under the auspices of the Workplace Relations Commission. These processes led to this offer of 5%, as the Deputy has already indicated. It was disappointing that this offer was not put to these organisation's own employees for a vote. No vote was given to the employees and it would have been useful if they had a vote because some of this pay increase was also being backdated. I understand that the union, within its rights, chose not to give its members a vote in this situation. I encourage all parties to go back to the Workplace Relations Commission urgently and that the strike be deferred, as called for by the Deputy.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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For me, from having spoken with all of the section 39 workers, their issue is one which needs to be addressed. They are employed in voluntary not-for-profit healthcare organisations. They have undergone the same rigourous training and education as their counterparts in section 38 organisations staffed by the HSE workers. They work the same conditions, face the same challenges and shoulder the same responsibility but do not get the same pay.

That in itself, I say to the Minister of State, is unfair. It makes them feel rejected and makes them ask why should they do the same work and get less pay when they can go to the HSE and get more.

Also, everybody has the same bills and is facing very significant challenges now. While we are in a good place where everybody is doing their best and is working, every penny coming into a household now is crucial. We want to ensure that those section 39 organisations have the very same pay as section 38 organisations. I found from speaking to the section 39 workers that their morale was broken. That is why we have the very significant issues with staff, recruitment and retention.

I ask the Minister of State now again to go back to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe - again, I am raging he is not here - and ask him, as we need to know, what funding he will put through the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to ensure that we do not have a strike on Tuesday because we are affecting the most vulnerable people and children in our society whom we need to ensure are looked after. As I said, section 39 organisation workers do not want to do this. They are so upset over it but they feel they have no choice but to do this now because it is not fair. They feel that they are not getting what they deserve and they deserve proper pay.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. I want to reiterate that the Government recognises the important role section 39 and section 56 organisations and the staff on their payrolls play in terms of the work they do. They continue to have a vital role in providing services to people with disabilities, vulnerable children and older people. I know that they are proposing to go out on strike with a heavy heart and a tear in their eye; they do not feel good having to do this but that this is the position they are in at this stage.

The line Department which directly provides that funding are the people who should be involved in this negotiation. I would urge at this late stage that over the weekend and by Monday, if it is possible, these workers go back to the Workplace Relations Commission, and re-enter negotiations and resume discussions that were already taking place. This can only happen if the actual strike action on Tuesday is postponed. Everybody here would like to see this resolved without people having to formally go out on strike in such a sensitive area in view of the people these workers look after on a daily basis. I urge, once again, that the strike be deferred and that people go back to the Workplace Relations Commission. Everybody knows that that is how the system works. We have seen that in other strikes or potential strikes over the years. We are at the 11th hour, and now is the time, for the Workplace Relations Commission, the State organisation, to be utilised at the beginning of next week.

Hopefully, a resolution can be found at that stage but I cannot give any commitment because the Workplace Relations Commission is independent in what proposals it will put to both sides.