Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 9 November 2023
Public Accounts Committee
Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 29 - Environment, Climate and Communications
Financial Statements 2022: Sustainability Energy Authority of Ireland
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 8: Performance of Certain Residential Retrofit Schemes
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Ó Cathasaigh, Munster and Verona Murphy. I welcome the witnesses. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
A number of witnesses today are giving their evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses who are physically present. Those witnesses have already been advised of this and may think it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise to engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply.
Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Patricia Devlin, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
This morning, we engage with officials from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and representatives of the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI to examine Vote 29 - Environment, Climate and Communications of the Appropriation Accounts 2022, the 2022 financial statements of the SEAI, and Chapter 8 of the 2022 report on the accounts of the public services on the performance of certain residential retrofit schemes.
We are joined by Ms Oonagh Buckley, Secretary General; Mr. Philip Nugent, assistant secretary; Mr. Barry Quinlan, assistant secretary; Mr. Fergal Mulligan, director of the national broadband plan, NBP; and Ms Louise Carrigan, principal officer, Department of Environment, Climate and Communications. Dr. Richard Browne, director of the National Cyber Security Centre, NCSC; and Mr. Robert Deegan, principal officer, are joining us online. We are also joined by Mr. William Walsh, chief executive officer; Ms Marion O'Brien, director of corporate services; Mr. Ciaran Byrne, director of national retrofit; Mr. Declan Meally, director of business, public sector and transport; and Ms Margie McCarthy, director of research, policy and insights, SEAI. We are joined online by Ms Olivia O'Connor, head of finance; Mr. Tom Halpin, head of marketing and communications; Mr. Joe Durkan, head of technical; and Mr. Brian O'Mahony, head of community and national retrofit scheme, SEAI.
We are also joined by Mr. Ken Cleary, principal officer at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.
The witnesses are all very welcome. I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
The Appropriation Account for Vote 29 - Environment, Climate and Communications records total expenditure of €2.366 billion in 2022. This was almost four times the €664 million spent in 2021. The main reason for the increase with the exceptional expenditure on two electricity credits schemes in response to rising energy costs.
Expenditure in 2022 is accounted for under four programmes in what is a revised structure for the Vote. The programme for climate action and environment leadership involved expenditure of just under €97 million, including grant support for the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. Expenditure under the energy transformation programme amounted to €1.97 billion, comprising €1.588 billion spent on the energy credits schemes and €387 million on other energy schemes, including energy-efficiency grants support. A total of €90.6 million was spent on the circular economy development programme, which encompasses inland fisheries, waste management and the Geological Survey Ireland, GSI. Expenditure on the connectivity and communications programme in 2022 was €203 million. Of this, €177 million related to expenditure on the NBP. The net surplus remaining at the year end was €301 million, which was liable for surrender to the Exchequer.
The SEAI works primarily with Irish householders, businesses, communities and the Government with the objective of creating a cleaner and more efficient energy future. Additionally, it supports the development of clean energy technologies and has responsibility for the administration of the national building energy rating, BER, system. The SEAI's income in 2022 totalled €344.5 million. Of this, €336.2 million, or almost 98%, came from Exchequer cash grants. Some €271.5 million was received from Vote 29, Environment, Climate and Communications, for a range of grant schemes and for the SEAI's general administration costs. A further €64.7 million was received from Vote 31, Transport, to support the electric vehicles programme. Details of expenditure on the individual grant schemes are provided in note 7 to the financial statements. The authority's overall expenditure on administration amounted to €23.2 million, up from €18.8 million in 2021.
Ireland is committed to a legally binding target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 51% from a 2018 baseline by 2030. Achieving this target will require significant reductions in emissions from all economic sectors. This includes significant reductions in emissions from existing housing stock. At the end of 2022, just under 40% of the housing stock had a valid BER certificate. Of those that were certified, fewer than one in five had a rating of B2 or better. The target is to retrofit the equivalent of 500,000 dwellings to a BER rating of B2 by 2030.
The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications funds a range of sustainable energy programmes to support the achievement of reductions in emissions and to reduce energy poverty. It has provided funding of around €1.2 billion for sustainable energy programmes, and the majority of this funding, €1.1 billion, was provided to the SEAI. The report before the committee today reviews the performance of two SEAI-managed home retrofit schemes, namely, the better energy warmer homes scheme, under which retrofit works to benefit those at risk of energy poverty are 100% grant funded, and the better energy home scheme, under which grants are provided to support home owners commissioning retrofit works. Over the last ten years, expenditure on these two schemes has amounted to €538 million.
On a targeted basis, the SEAI conducts inspections of retrofits carried out by contractors under the schemes. In 2022, two in five of the projects funded under the better energy warmer homes scheme were inspected. In comparison, just under one in five projects under the better energy home scheme were inspected. Of the projects inspected, only around half initially received a pass rating. Following rectification, almost all retrofits achieved a pass rating. Because the inspections are carried out on a targeted basis, the initial results of the inspections may not be representative of the standard of works overall. Nevertheless, they indicate that a higher rate of inspection may be required.
The intended outcomes of both schemes are reduced emissions and energy savings. Currently, estimates of the outcomes are calculated using assumptions based on aged sources of data. Actual reductions achieved in energy consumption could be established using data from sources such as meter readings taken before and after the retrofit has taken place. These data are available to energy suppliers but not currently to the SEAI.
In 2018, greenhouse gas emissions from the Irish residential sector stood at an estimated 7 Mt CO2 eq. The climate action plan target is for this to fall to not more than 4 Mt CO2 eq by 2030. Retrofits supported under the SEAI's residential schemes are estimated to have contributed modestly to the required emissions reduction and are projected to deliver less than half the target reduction by 2030. To help to achieve this, the SEAI must meet its 2025 interim target for B2-equivalent retrofits carried out. Up to the end of 2022, the SEAI estimated it had achieved just over a quarter of that target, and it is not clear how or if the SEAI-funded schemes will deliver the remaining target retrofits in the three years from 2023 to 2025.
Before I conclude, I would like to draw the attention of the committee to a small number of amendments in the report following publication. As part of the preparation for today's meeting, we identified some minor corrections required to the figures in the report. These increased the retrofit works inspection rates, shown in figure 8.7, for the better energy warmer homes scheme to 51% for 2021 and 41% for 2022. The estimated energy saving for homes retrofitted in 2020 under the same scheme, shown in figure 8.8, has also been revised to 4.7 GWh from the previously indicated 4.4 GWh. While the changes are marginal, they do not affect the conclusions or recommendations of the report. However, in the interests of accuracy, I wanted to take this opportunity to correct the record in this regard. Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. I wish Ms Buckley well and all the best in her new appointment. As we said in our letter of invitation, she has five minutes to make her opening statement.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee very much for their invitation to attend this meeting. Along with my colleagues to whom the Cathaoirleach referred earlier, I am also joined by Mr. Patrick Neary, assistant secretary. I look forward to this opportunity, my first, to engage with the committee as Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications regarding my Department's 2022 Appropriation Account and the performance of certain residential retrofit schemes in 2022. I am very happy to be here alongside Mr. William Walsh and his team.
Last year was an exceptional one for my Department in terms of expenditure. During 2022, my Department was approved for three supplementary Estimates, in March, July and October. These totalled an additional allocation of €1.743 billion, an almost tripling of the original allocation for the year, from €926 million to €2.67 billion. The first supplementary allocation was in relation to the first electricity credit introduced to offset the sharp increase in energy prices for households during the winter of 2022. The second was to fund additional electricity emergency generation capacity for the winter of 2023-24 through to the winter of 2025-26. The third mainly concerned the electricity credit for the winter of 2022-23, along with some additional funding for the electricity emergency generation capacity, based on forecasts at that time.
The total gross expenditure under the Vote in 2022 amounted to €2.366 billion. This was €304 million, or 11%, below the revised budgetary allocation, including a capital carryover of €2.67 billion. The main reason for the underspending was €199 million in relation to the Supplementary Estimate for emergency generation capacity.
The unprecedented spending of €1.975 billion under the Department's energy transformation programme reflected the focus on energy affordability as a result of rising international prices and the knock-on effect caused to domestic customers by the war in Ukraine. As part of the Government's response to the resulting cost-of-living crisis, €1.588 billion was provided for the Government's two electricity costs emergency benefits schemes. The first scheme credited €200, including VAT, to more than 2.1 million domestic electricity accounts in April and May 2022. In response to continued price rises, the Government introduced a second scheme amounting to a total of €600, including VAT, to domestic electricity accounts between November 2022 and April 2023. In light of the continued high energy bills faced by households, a third scheme was announced by the Government in budget 2024, which will see a further €450, including VAT, credited to an estimated 2.237 million domestic electricity accounts between December 2023 and April 2024. In total, therefore, domestic electricity accounts will have been credited with €1,250 since the beginning of the war in Ukraine.
In June 2022, the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities, CRU, directed EirGrid to procure approximately 450 MW of additional generation capacity for the winter of 2023-24 through to the winter of 2025-26 to offset a potential capacity shortfall in electricity supply. Some €151 million in financial support was provided to EirGrid to place orders for the electricity generation units and to ensure they were delivered and installed in time for this winter. The balance of the cost of delivering the additional capacity is being managed through EirGrid's own corporate resources and transmission use-of-system charges. No further Exchequer funding will be required.
Over €200 million was spent on residential community retrofit programmes in 2022, some €151 million from this Vote and €49 million from the energy-efficiency national fund. This expenditure supported 27,200 home energy upgrades.
Of these, 4,438 homes were delivered across the fully funded energy poverty schemes, principally the warmer homes scheme. Of the overall 27,200 upgrades delivered, 8,481 homes were upgraded to a post-works building energy rating, BER, of B2 or better in 2022, representing a 95% increase in B2 upgrades year on year. Significantly, following a Government decision in February 2022, the SEAI also established a network of one-stop-shops. Mr. Walsh will speak to the SEAI delivery so I will not talk to it any further.
The national broadband plan is a key enabler for implementation of the digital connectivity strategy. The availability of high-speed, reliable, digital connectivity will support the delivery of Ireland’s economic and social ambitions and will position Ireland at the forefront of European and global digital developments. In its State of the Digital Decade 2023report published on 27 September, the European Commission highlights that Ireland is expected to make a positive contribution to the collective efforts to achieve the EU’s digital decade targets. It notes that our country shows a high level of digital skills and has the potential to further improve its performance in digital infrastructure and digitalisation of businesses.
There was expenditure of €177 million on the national broadband plan in 2022. This was an increase of €32 million on the 2021 outturn of €145 million. By the end of 2022, design work was completed on 351,240 premises, network build was completed for 122,440 premises, 109,256 premises were passed, and over 19% of the intervention area was completed. In addition, 27,682 premises were able to avail of high-speed broadband services, with a further 4,029 connections pending. By the end of 2022, 281 public broadband connection points were in place, with 278 of these open for business. These are located in places of community importance, including community centres, local hubs and so on. In addition, more than 561 schools in remote rural locations had a connection installed, with 199 of these schools provided with high-speed connectivity by the end of 2022.
As of 27 October 2023, significant additional progress has been made. National Broadband Ireland, NBI, is reporting that design is completed on more than 432,259 premises, in excess of 202,000 premises can place an order or pre-order for connection through broadband service providers, and more than 191,000 premises are passed across 26 counties, of which 18,815 are farms. A total of 58,332 premises have now been connected, with National Broadband Ireland connecting around 3,500 homes each month. To date, the level of connections is in line with projections and some areas are exceeding targets. The Government and the NBI have agreed to accelerate the roll out of high-speed broadband to some 672 schools across the State in the intervention area. This acceleration is on target to be complete by the end of 2023. This will ensure all schools across the State will have the necessary infrastructure to carry out their critical day-to-day educational activities unimpeded by poor broadband.
In 2022, the Department provided €97 million on climate action and environment leadership programmes. Almost €52 million of this expenditure was provided to the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, under that subhead. This supports the EPA in the delivery of its mandate and purpose to protect, improve and restore our environment.
I will mention a couple of other things in the interest of time.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly, please.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
The other key programme under climate leadership is the just transition programme, which has been set up to ensure the transition to a climate neutral economy happens in a fair way. In December 2022, the European Commission approved Ireland’s programme for the EU just transition fund, and that will see up to €191 million invested in the midlands region over the coming years both through my Department and other Departments involved in the programme.
As committee members can probably hear from my voice, I am currently suffering from a cold so if I have a coughing fit in the middle of this, I apologise in advance. I am not counting but this is only my ninth week in this job. I tend to try and answer every question and do a solo run on these things but, unusually for me, I will probably have to call on my colleagues a little bit more than I generally like to do for fear of misleading the committee, so I hope the Chairman and members will forgive me in advance.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay and I thank Ms Buckley. I now invite Mr. Walsh to make his opening statement.
Mr. William Walsh:
I thank the Chairperson and members of the Committee of Public Accounts for the invitation to attend the meeting today to discuss the SEAI’s financial statements for 2022 and the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022, chapter 8 - performance of certain residential retrofit schemes.
I am joined by Ms Marion O’Brien, director of corporate services; Dr. Ciaran Byrne, director of national retrofit; Mr. Declan Meally, director of business, public sector and transport; and Ms Margie McCarthy, director of research, policy and insights. I am joined online by Ms Olivia O’Connor, head of finance; Mr. Tom Halpin, head of communications; Mr. Joe Durkan, head of technical; and Mr. Brian O’Mahony, head of community and national retrofit. I thank the committee members for the opportunity to make our opening statement.
SEAI’s mission is to be at the heart of Ireland’s energy revolution and is funded by the Government of Ireland, through the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Department of Transport. In 2023, our budget allocation is €594 million.
In all our activities SEAI strives to maintain strong governance processes that deliver compliance with relevant laws, regulations, codes of practice, standards and scheme guidelines. The SEAI is focused on delivery, driving Ireland’s sustainable energy transformation for the benefit of all society. In our briefing note we detail the most significant achievements for last year. This year, we are on track to exceed many of those outcomes and expect to have supported more than 38,000 home energy upgrades; 15,000 electric vehicle, EV, grants; the publication of around 140,000 BERs; and the expansion of our sustainable energy community network to more than 800 member communities. The years 2022 and 2023 have been years of growth in the scope and scale of delivery for SEAI. We have grown our core staff base to approximately 235 employees this year. Bringing in additional resources builds our capacity, extends our expertise and enables us to widen our reach.
The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General recognises that emissions reductions are needed in each sector of the economy to achieve our climate targets. The target for the residential sector is to be achieved by a wide range of interventions. SEAI welcomes the insights and recommendations provided. Targets must be ambitious to drive the activity necessary to decarbonise our energy system by 2050. Target achievement will rarely be a straight-line trajectory. In the case of home energy upgrades, we need to simultaneously build supply chain capacity and increase homeowner demand to ensure long-term success. We are putting the foundations in place and steadily building towards more rapid delivery in the second half of the decade. We must recognise the human behavioural component. Governments can incentivise but it is homeowners who decide to upgrade their homes. We are satisfied that more homeowners understand and want the benefits on offer. Our behavioural economics team is continuously assessing how to make upgrades more appealing.
The purpose of inspections is to provide evidence that works have been carried out, acting as a deterrent against poor behaviour and reducing the risk of abuse of our schemes or unintended consequences. There are ancillary benefits, which include providing feedback to contractors and homeowners on meeting specifications contained in applicable codes of practice. SEAI’s inspections are targeted on the basis of risk, identifying measures and-or contractors where administrative or technical non-compliance is more likely to occur. All contractors are subject to minimum rates of inspection. In most cases, where a property does not pass an inspection, there will only be a very small number of inspection points that have failed to meet standards. Cases of serious non-compliance are rare.
SEAI is committed to driving quality improvements across the supply chain. At the start of 2023, we set up a new quality team looking at how quality can be optimised to improve overall pass rates and reduce demands for the supply chain and homeowners. This is particularly important as we scale, and the recommendation by the Comptroller and Auditor General to review inspection practices is timely and will be implemented. SEAI inspections use fair but demanding market-led standards and codes of practice, which are published and shared with contractors and homeowners. We want a robust supply chain with high standards and sufficient capacity to meet increasing demand. These are inspections of private contractors, operating commercially and not directly or exclusively for SEAI. Nor is SEAI a formal regulator of the industry, often deferring to the regulatory powers of other agencies like the Register of Gas Installers of Ireland, RGI, the Register of Electrical Contractors of Ireland, RECI, and the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI. Therefore, SEAI is not a certifier of works nor does it provide any warranty for the works it inspects.
When you upgrade the insulation of a home, you reduce the energy required to maintain the same living conditions. When you add solar panels or a heat pump, you further reduce fossil fuel use and harmful emissions. Any home upgraded through our schemes is better, more efficient, more comfortable and healthier. Homeowners benefit and so does the State. SEAI currently uses a combination of energy performance assessment and conservative savings estimates to model national outcomes for our schemes. Actual achievements of home energy upgrades can be very difficult to quantify precisely. Every home is different and upgrades may differ slightly. Added to this are the variability of weather, occupancy levels and user behaviour. As I stated to the committee in March, SEAI has a strong body of evidence to illustrate the costs and benefits of the sustainable energy transition, based upon research, expertise and experience. We are clear that the multiple benefits far outweigh the costs.
The demand on Ireland's energy and environment requires us to work at pace and to deliver even greater results, learnings and improvements.
Nationally, there needs to be a significant investment in climate. Our latest projections confirm we are falling behind in on our legally-binding carbon obligations. Moreover, we are starting to feel the real impact of climate change here in Ireland, as seen with the recent floods around the country. This will only become a greater problem for us over time. The system is working to address climate change mitigation and adaptation measures but it is under strain. We need to build even greater system-wide capacity to enable us to show leadership on climate action, and to drive our revolution away from fossil fuels in Ireland.
I want to acknowledge the strategic leadership of the board of SEAI, and to thank the staff of SEAI for their continued commitment, passion and dedication. I also wish to thank our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, the Department of Transport and the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, for their ongoing support. I welcome the discussion with the committee, and thank members for listening to my high-level overview of the topics for discussion today. The team and I are happy to answer any questions members may wish to raise.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Walsh. The first committee member this morning is Deputy Alan Kelly, who has 15 minutes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I thank the Chair, and very much welcome all the witnesses. I am a former Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, so I would know a number of the principals here today, as well as others in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the organisations. I have about six or seven questions, and 15 minutes, so I would appreciate short answers purely for efficiency purposes. I am going to start off with SEAI and then work back to the Department.
On Chapter 8 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the performance of certain residential retrofit schemes, I will say at the outset that there should be more public awareness of the fact SEAI is not a regulator. That is an issue that needs to be pushed because I think there is a misconception that SEAI is a regulator. It is not a regulator. It is our job as public representatives, and that of others, to push that more because it certainly gets lost.
SEAI residential schemes will deliver less than half of the overall residential targeted energy use reduction by 2030 and, to date, it has only contributed modestly to the target. How does the SEAI expect the rest of the 2030 residential energy reduction target to be achieved, given the statistics we have to date?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I thank Deputy Kelly. With regard to his question on targets - and I will keep it brief - we are looking at our sectoral emissions ceilings as being effectively in two chunks. Our first target is to achieve 0.9 Mt of carbon by 2025, and that ramps up from the residential sector of the built environment chapter to 0.22 Mt by 2030. What we are at the moment is that we are going to achieve that B2 achievement, and today we have achieved-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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By what achievement?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am a huge supporter but the one issue is that activity levels will have to ramp up in order to meet the targets. How is SEAI going to increase the activity levels?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
That is what we are doing at the moment. We are putting the foundations in place. We have been in with the committee before, and one can see the trajectory from 2019 to 2022. We have seen, year on year, significant growth. Even between this year and last year, we have seen a significant increase from 27,000 retrofits to over 40,000 this year, and we are going to increase it again the year after.
What we are seeing on the ground is that people are buying into the retrofit, they are engaging with it in significant numbers, and all of our statistics are up significantly on last year.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What are the risks? What is SEAI's risk register with regard to achieving this?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Why would they do that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is where I am going. Affordability is the key question here, and we as a committee need to make some recommendations on this. Affordability is the issue that comes up in my clinics all the time. What measurements has SEAI on that?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
For clarity, what we do is we have QS in our grant schemes. In February 2022, we significantly increased the value of the grant schemes in line with market rates. In the last two weeks, the Minister, Deputy Ryan, signed in the instruments for the low-cost loan scheme, which will be rolled out in quarter 1 of 2024. Our analysis has shown that this low-cost loan scheme will be transformative in terms of people engaging with retrofit.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am not convinced. The real issue with these schemes is affordability. It is the one thing that pops up all the time across all politicians' clinics, I would say. It is the real issue. Unless we can grasp that, I will be honest, I do not think there is a hope of reaching these targets. There needs to be a rapid transformation. By the way, this is not all within SEAI's gift, and I appreciate that but I would love see some measurement from SEAI indexing this as an issue. To be honest, in the political sphere, we need to deal with this because the longer-term benefits outweigh the manner in which we need to make this affordable.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
On the affordability piece, we really increased the rate of grant for the cavity and wall measures. It was up 80% last year, and we have seen a continued rise in the uptake of those two measures, which make a difference with regard to energy performance of a home, and are very affordable. We have been looking at that with the schemes, and we made those changes last year.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have a quick query on contractors. We have got a human resource issue with regard to the volume of people, and I hope the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris, will deal with this in the long term. However, through our clinics again, there are some issues that come up with regard to contractors and how they are acting, and I would encourage SEAI to deal with them. Even last Friday I had somebody in my clinic who is on the warmer homes scheme and were getting their house retrofitted. The dormer windows and the roof was not part of it. That does not make any sense because, essentially, all the heat is going to go out through there. The contractor said they would do it separately. That should not be happening. I will fire on the case to SEAI separately but that should not be happening.
What inspections are being done? First, I agree with the Comptroller and Auditor General with regard to the need for data or a measurement before and after regarding performance. I know SEAI does not get it. I know the contractors get it. What is being done by SEAI to ensure that it gets the data, which it can then supply to us, with regard to a "before and after" on energy consumption, etc.? Second, we have an outlay of contractors. What is being done with regard to measuring their performance and activities?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Quickly, please.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, but the SEAI should, and has it plans to get that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Should that not be mandated? We can make the recommendation. What does SEAI need for that to happen?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I thank Ms McCarthy. What about the contractors?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Very quickly, as I have seven minutes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I would encourage SEAI to do more. I need to move on, and I wish Ms O'Brien the best of luck in her new role.
On the national broadband plan, and the €8 million underspend, what milestone was missed to ensure there was an underspend of €13.5 million, and how was there a forecasting error of €20 million? What is the updated timeline for the completion of the plan, and where we are with regard to benchmarking where we should be on the plan?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay. We have one and a half minutes for this bit.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know that. Are we up to speed on that?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
We are absolutely up to speed on that, and that will be delivered. We are very confident of that. In fact, at this point they are outperforming on the contract this year.
With regard to the milestones missed in 2022 and the underspend, I will have to ask a colleague, probably Mr. Fergal Mulligan, to specify what that was.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know that but why was there-----
Mr. Fergal Mulligan:
-----and they were delayed by the Covid-19 pandemic by over eight and a half months.
We had to give them relief under the contract for that because they were not allowed to work, visit premises, connect them or do various other things. Because they did not get paid in 2022, the amount of subsidy required was a lot less.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What milestone was missing?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know all about it - trust me.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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If that is the case in relation to payments, how do we know that we are going to be on schedule as regards what the Secretary General has said?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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In other words, are you catching up?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have four more questions. There is a €170 million underspend on the residential community retrofit programmes and a significant underspend on the energy efficiency national fund. Why is there a €170 million underspend on the residential community retrofit programmes? It seems that the funding that would have been lost under the energy efficiency national fund has been transferred and kept by the Department two years in a row. I have not seen this before. Can we ask the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for a commentary on this?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We can, yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I presume every other Department can do this now if this Department can do it, if that is the case. Why was there an underspend of €170 million on the retrofit programmes, in the view of the Department?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is that not a massive risk? We cannot get workers for anything at the moment, which is a positive problem, but-----
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
It is a risk, but it is a risk we have to mitigate. As the Deputy has already pointed out, there is work being done by our partner Department to try to introduce people into apprenticeships. What we have to be saying to people is that this retrofitting scheme will be out to 2030 and beyond, because we will only have the first 500,000 houses done-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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From a departmental point of view, how many extra workers are required in order for us to meet the targets on the retrofitting up to 2030?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Mr. Quinlan has done the estimate already.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We need 17,000 people to be able to meet the targets.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is a very important figure, a Chathaoirligh.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is probably the most important figure-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have two final questions, the first of which is very brief because the last one was a bit of an observation. On the just transition fund, further underspends were recorded in relation to the fund due to grantees experiencing a number of challenges in implementing projects, especially in relation to drawdowns. I represent Littleton, which I had to push to get into just transition because it was often forgotten about because it was not exactly in the midlands. What are the challenges? I think it is possibly more to do with a lack of projects. There are challenges in relation to the current projects being put forward. What are the challenges?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Were they not supported enough by the local agencies?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What sort of other projects could they come up with, considering that these areas have been devastated? What sort of projects would the Department be suggesting?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is a kind of defined area space that they can work with.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There have been some in Littleton.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
Absolutely. We are talking very much about supporting socioeconomic activity, particularly into tourism. Environmental tourism would be the sort of thing that we have seen quite a bit of. We would hope that with the extra supports we can give these projects and community projects, we will be able to bring them along the line so they can draw down that funding. We do not want to lose it; we want to spend it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My final question is for Mr. Nugent. It is on the circular economy. The issue is a real bugbear of mine, and is huge, as far as I am concerned, if we are going to meet our targets. What work is being done to ensure that large agencies across the board, for example, the HSE, are fully - and I mean fully - engaged in delivering? I know they have plans, because I have looked at them, but I just do not know if there is throughput. What is the Department doing to ensure that from a circular economy point of view the likes of the HSE and all the other larger agencies are actually engaging? What authority and what proactive steps is the Department taking in relation to this with these agencies? Looking at the amount of waste that the HSE produces, whether is normal waste or clinical waste, the way in which it is being handled now cannot continue. It is not acceptable either. What steps are being taken and what timelines are being put in place to ensure that changes?
Mr. Philip Nugent:
A lot is happening at the moment. In terms of waste collection, there is an obligation on all commercial contracts to include full segregation. That has been in place since July of this year. It was not an obligation up until then. We know that there was about a 70% contamination rate prior to the introduction of the requirement----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Clinical waste is separated, for instance.
Mr. Philip Nugent:
Not even that. The non-clinical waste will have to be treated separately anyway, and that has always been the case. I am talking about the normal output from healthcare centres, which would include residual waste, recyclable waste and organic waste. Up until recently, there was not an obligation to segregate those streams, but now there is an obligation for all commercial contracts to have full segregation.
In addition, it is really important to look at the spend that the public sector has, including bodies like the HSE. Across the EU, it is about 14% of total GDP. Plugging into the procurement end of things is really important for us. We recently published green public procurement guidance for public consultation, which is out for another couple of weeks. That is going to be a really important way of ensuring that, at the outset, all public bodies are fully bought into the circular economy and not just the back-end waste stuff. That will have a significant impact.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will try to go through things quite quickly because I have even less time than Deputy Kelly. As he said, we get good intel from people who have got retrofits or have bought electric vehicles, EVs, on what does and does not work. One of the things that I heard from a constituent surprised me. Obviously, there is a great reliance on home charging points for EVs. Smartzone is in receivership, as the witnesses are aware. I received a complaint from someone who had their charging point remotely switched off. I understand that has happened to quite a lot of people. Does the SEAI bundle the grants for the purchase of the EVs and the charging accessory? How can we build confidence if that kind of thing can happen?
Mr. Declan Meally:
In terms of the home charging grants that we are talking about, they are individual grants and the people apply for them individually and get their grant of €600 for the home charger. Is the Deputy talking about a bundle where they would get their home retrofit and their solar with that-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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No.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am talking about bundling the purchase of an EV and the grant for the home charger. I presume the two-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The point I really want to get it is that if we are going to build confidence and people are going to buy EVs, they have to be sure that the charging point they have installed in their home is not going to be switched off. I am quite astonished by that. People are being sent back to the company who installed it that is now in receivership. I am drawing attention to this because it is a failure, and it is the kind of thing that will put people off. If we are going to get people to switch, the greatest advocates are the people who use it, and use it successfully.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The same issue arises with windows, whereby we are seeing deep retrofits under the scheme where people are at risk of poverty. People are doing very good work but being told the most that could be installed as replacements are single-glazed windows. It just does not make sense. I may well pass a couple of these cases on as samples of what is happening rather than try to resolve a constituency query.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
We would like to hear those stories because we too want to build people's confidence in their smart meter systems and the retrofitting system. We do need to hear those stories. If there are things we can do to address them, we will certainly be very happy to try to do them. We need to build people's confidence in the system so they will opt into it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On the inspections of work done, the rate is one in five or two in five, depending on the scheme. However, defects are being found. Are the same defects being found in different locations? By virtue of the fact that not every single job is being inspected, which would be a very big ask, how is the authority sure defects are not pretty much missed in the jobs that are not inspected?
Ms Marion O'Brien:
I will take that. The primary purpose is to make sure the works are done and are operating. Thankfully, that works. We have a secondary objective, which is to make sure the technical standards we set out are adhered to and that we are promoting best practice. It is in that space that we can find issues. Last year, we had almost 10,000 measures, involving attics, cavities or other areas. We have a very long checklist. Our comprehensive checklist-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I just need a succinct reply.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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My question was on whether defects are replicated.
Ms Marion O'Brien:
Our job is to educate the contractors. We bring them along. Yes, one can find replication in respect of contractors making good, but all cases will be individual because every house is different. Every house might have its attic and wiring done differently. We do bring the contractors along. When we find issues, we educate the contractors. Generally, they do not repeat after a period.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Where there is a repetition of defects, do the contractors go back to the houses involved without the authority having to inspect?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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With regard to local authority houses, are some local authorities better than others? My local authority raised with me the fact that there is a gap between the amount allocated and the amount it costs to retrofit. Is that gap widening with inflation?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I might take that. To clarify, I cannot speak specifically on behalf of local authorities even though we work closely with them. Therefore, on the question as to whether some are better than others, I cannot comment. We do work closely with local authorities and they retrofit to similar standards. SR 54 is the standard we all adhere to. They would have that.
On the funding arrangements, we fund the private sector, and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage funds the local authority sector. I understand there was a gap but I could not possibly comment on that.
Mr. William Walsh:
May I add a further point? SEAI recently met the CCMA to further develop its relationship as the national retrofit delivery body. The local authorities have to deliver around 40,000 homes up to 2030. We are ensuring the learnings from schemes can be replicated in respect of the homes that have to be upgraded by the local authorities.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The thing about it is that the local authority has to make up the difference, and it does not have a fund to make up that difference. It may well be the reason for underfunding and underperforming. That would be the key thing.
The one thing the Committee of Public Accounts and I hate to see is allocated money that is not spent. In some respects, it is nearly as bad as misspent money, particularly in the area of climate. The document shows underspends of €37 million on climate action and environment leadership, €238 million on energy transformation, €7 million on circular economy development, and €22 million on connectivity and communications delivery. Is the Department able to spend its budget? We are all past Covid at this stage. It was a couple of years ago. There was one year in which there was major disruption, but I do not really want to hear the excuse about Covid. Can the Department spend its budget?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
The Deputy will be pleased to hear that we are going to need a supplementary budget this year. Perhaps she will not be pleased to hear it. We are maxing out our expenditure in a number of areas. It is fair to say that the large underspend last year, of €22 million, was because we got a supplementary budget for emergency electricity generation. The calculations were done at very high speed. The money was allocated but then it did not need to be drawn down by EirGrid because it had a supply chain issue related to putting in the generation. That generation is now in. It is in testing at the moment – I am referring to the first one – and it will be up and running this year.
The Deputy is quite right. We try to spend everything we can. Sometimes we do not get there and sometimes there are delays. Sometimes another report on remediation is needed but we do try to spend as much as we can.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We will be paying particular attention to this next year. Ms Buckley is telling me that under-expenditure will not happen.
Value for money is another of our core requirements. With regard to retrofitting homes, we expected economies of scale whereby multiple units in one housing estate would be together. I am not seeing that. Is it happening? The witnesses may well have an example or two. If I remember correctly, there is one in Fingal.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Strandmill estate in Fingal. We joined in with the local authority where it was obligated to do its own homes. We filled in the gaps in terms of the can-pay sector. Contractors, the SEAI and the local authority were working together. That is a proof-of-concept project. It sounds silly, but there is actually a lot of finer detail to get right in terms of who does what and how it gets done. The lesson from that, on which we will build and work again with local authorities, including Fingal County Council, is that the journey for homeowners is very complex. Where the local authority owns the homes, it is straightforward, but getting the other homeowners on board requires a very significant amount of work in terms of local workshops, community groups and things like that and pulling it together. Strandmill has been very successful for us.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to hear about the success, but we are very short on time. What were the major impediments in getting the other homeowners on board? I presume cost was key.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Cost was definitely one. Even aside from cost, there was reluctance. One or two homeowners really did not want to sign up until they saw the work being done. It was then that they could experience it. Strandmill is an example. It is a little terrace of houses. People who see it say it looks nice and want some of the action. When the first workshops were held, there was a lot of hesitancy. Certainly, cost was one factor, but it was also a matter of people buying into the initiative. There was a lot of work on clarifying what exactly was involved because there is a lot of misinformation on what is involved in retrofitting and the disruption.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the plan for scaling it up?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The plan is to keep working with the local authorities. We are starting to work with the local authorities in Fingal, Cork and elsewhere.
On the scale side, we do a lot of work with approved housing bodies. That is a good way of getting aggregation because typically those bodies maintain their homes at a more-or-less good standard. Also, a significant number of homes can be done at one time, be it on an estate or elsewhere.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. On the national broadband plan, how many houses or residents have been reached at this stage? Is it 50% or 40%?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Between now and the end of 2024, what percentage will we have achieved?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the timescale for the remaining 50%?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Buckley satisfied that we are making progress?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is one thing to make it available in an area but what is the percentage of take-up at the moment?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I want to go back to the totally different issue of retrofitting. There is very much a focus on homes, which is correct, but what kind of campaign is being run to encourage commercial facilities and in particular, Government Departments? We are here in Leinster House, for instance, and I have an office that has steel framed, single-glazed windows. If we are serious about this, should Government Departments not also be prioritising energy saving?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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How much retrofitting is currently going on in Government Departments?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Let us say what the "less" means. Is it-----
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
Our own Department is going to be a bit of a pathfinder in that we are moving into a heavily retrofitted building in January or February. That is going to bring us to an A standard building, which will be great. We have pathfinder projects and will be seeking, with the assistance of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, funding under the REPowerEU scheme for ten HSE-run hospital sites. We have a very large appetite across the public sector to do this but the difficulties have been the usual ones of planning and project management capacity. We are working actively with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to ensure we have sufficient funding to drive forward on those public sector retrofits.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If one takes the old Leinster House building, for example, if we did a proper job there, we could save up to 60% in terms of energy use.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That applies right across the entire public sector estate, including local authorities, Government Departments and so on. Have we even done an assessment?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
We are at the very early stages, unfortunately. The other thing we would like to do is get public sector clients onto district heating schemes because they are good, solid, reliable clients who will pay for the heating. That would save an enormous amount of costs. For example, we are looking to push the Dublin district heating scheme, which will come up along the docklands and which could potentially heat this building, in a retrofitted state, for very little funding once we have got the initial project off the ground. The difficulty, as always with these things, is getting the funding in place and moving people forward together to get the-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is there a target for each Government Department for the next three to five years, in terms of how they intend to bring their buildings up to standard as regards energy saving?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is there an individual plan within each Department?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is also an area which is consuming a huge amount of energy and leading to huge waste.
Mr. Barry Quinlan:
Absolutely, and it is a huge target for us. We have a built environment task force that I chair. The Minister is on that task force and Mr. Meally, who is here today, chairs the public sector element of that. We have done a lot of the measurement and identified the big hitters in terms of where we would get the best reductions across the HSE, education, higher education and local authorities, which covers a lot of the building stock. We have done an overall assessment of costs around the potential and we are talking about a multibillion euro investment for the overall retrofit of buildings. A lot of that work is done and now we are into pathways forward across the various sectors. All of those key sectors are on the task force and a plan is being put in place.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is one thing to have a task force but what I am asking is whether there are clear targets for the next five years within Government Departments.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I just want a simple answer. Are there targets in place?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What about Government Departments?
Mr. Declan Meally:
Every Government Department is part of that. I am referring to 350 organisations, including Government Departments. The public sector met its 2020 efficiency target of 33%. We now have a public sector working group on building retrofit. Under the pathfinders programme, in 2021 we spent €15 million through the SEAI and that was matched by each Government Department, giving a total of €30 million, and €36 million was spent in 2022, matched by the Government, giving roughly €70 million. This year we are at over €120 million, with more than €60 million coming from the SEAI. Progress is active. The HSE has set out its decarbonisation and retrofit plan, as has the Department of Education. We are currently working with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. Each Government Department is working with us. As the Secretary General has said, there is a challenge in terms of capacity but we have a plan and each organisation has its own climate action roadmap set out.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I want to go back to the housing issue now. In terms of the housing stock, a lot of houses are already very energy efficient but what kind of numbers are we talking about in terms of housing that is not energy efficient, particularly local authority housing?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I do not have the local authority figures but I know the target is for 36,500 homes to be retrofitted to B2 by the end of the decade. I do not have the figures to hand as to how many have been done or the current state of the property stock of local authorities. That information would rest with them but we are certainly working with them.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I know, for instance, that Cork City Council has over 11,000 individual properties. Surely it is easy enough to add up the number of local authority houses and the number that require serious work to be done. Is there a target for the number of houses to be done in 2024, 2025, 2026 and so on? Should we not have targets within each local authority?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
My understanding is that each one of the local authorities has targets. An awful lot of the work that the Deputy has outlined has been done by Cork City Council. We work in parallel with the local authorities but we do not necessarily see all of their data. As the CEO said, we have met with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, with a view to having more integrated data analysis and things like that.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In relation to private property, what kind of numbers are we talking about in terms of units that need to be upgraded in order to provide energy efficiency?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The number we have in our target is 500,000 homes. We have about 2 million homes in the total stock and just under 1 million homes in the BER database. As the Comptroller and Auditor General outlined, approximately 20% of homes are at the B2 level or higher. The average energy rating in the country is a C3 but that is changing because we are building new homes that are more energy efficient and we are retrofitting homes too. The stock is constantly moving up the BER grades but our target is 500,000 homes by 2030.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Where are we with regard to that 500,000 at this stage?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Then we still have over 400,000 to achieve, so are we talking about trying to get 100,000 done per year if we want to reach our target by 2030?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The flight rate for B2 is from 2026 to 2030. It is anywhere between 65,000 and 75,000 B2 rated homes per year every year for the back end of the decade. All of the projections and modelling were for a slower development initially when we were building in the foundations and getting the grant schemes and the offering right, with what is called a hockey stick take-off for the latter part of the decade.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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There are challenges with regard to getting contractors. Where are we in that regard at this stage? It is a challenge and if we want to progress further, how do we deal with that?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
As the Deputy mentioned, we are at economic full employment and that is a significant challenge. On our warmer homes scheme, one of the more significant schemes, we ran a tender competition. We brought more contractors onto that scheme and within that scheme we also made it easier for existing contractors on a panel to subcontract works. On our individual contractors scheme, the better energy homes scheme, we have 1,350 contractors and we saw in the region of 400 contractors join the panel last year. What we are seeing in the industry, from a contractor perspective, is that more and more are pivoting towards retrofit but underneath that layer, getting individual workers is a difficulty. Our colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science have done a significant amount of work on setting up nearly zero energy building, NZEB, training courses. There are six education and training board, ETB, centres of excellence, two of which have a particular focus on short-course vocational programmes to support retrofit. As was mentioned earlier, we have about 5,000 employees in the sector but we need to ramp that up to approximately 17,000 and probably more than that.
We are working closely with our colleagues in SOLAS and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science in relation to traineeships and apprentices.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate Ms Buckley and welcome her and the other witnesses. I will start with the SEAI. In terms of the inspections, the inspection rate was 51% in 2021 and 41% in 2022. Do those relate only to the warmer homes scheme or were they across both schemes?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I hear what the witnesses are saying. As public representatives, we have received quite a few queries on which we have tried to engage with the SEAI. Where there are glaring issues, is the contractor penalised or removed from the list? Has that happened yet?
Ms Marion O'Brien:
As with lots of things, there is a process. There is a distinction between the two schemes. In the warmer homes scheme, where we currently have 36 contractors and had 29 last year, they have been procured and we work with them. They are not removed from the scheme but we have a significant enough financial penalty that applies until the contractor gets the works to the standards we need. That works because we get 100% compliance there.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Would the contractor be charged with putting any issues right?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Since the scheme began, is it correct that no contractor has been removed from the scheme?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What about the warmer homes scheme?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Have any been removed from the scheme?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What of the other scheme, the better energy scheme?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. How is a contractor appointed to the scheme?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The SEAI has 36 contractors on this scheme.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We have 36 contractors on that panel. We made it easier on that panel because once a procurement like that is done, the door is closed and one cannot have number 37. We have made it easier for subcontractors to come in under that scheme without the full standard procurement process.
On the individual measures programme, which is the better energy homes, contractors can just go on our website and apply. Basically speaking, once they have the appropriate qualifications to do the particular job they are applying for, they then do an on-boarding and training session with us and we put them on the panel. Then they are then put into the new box and do a kind of an on-boarding. They do a bit of a toolbox with talks and training and then we keep a close eye on them while they are starting to deliver.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is understandable and as it should be.
The last time we engaged, there was a big backlog in the warmer homes scheme due to a lack of contractors. That has since changed, which is very welcome. How many applications did the SEAI receive last year in total and, of those, how many are still outstanding?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
There are just over 18,000 on the waiting list at present. In the year to date, we have received just shy of 12,000 applications. Last year, we had total numbers in and around 9,000. The figure we are working on at the moment is 18,000.
We have increased the capacity on the contractor panel. Last year, as I think we all accept and which we mentioned in March, was an extraordinary year in terms of the climate, the cost-of-living crisis and the energy crisis and we saw a significant increase in applications to the panel.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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From my experience, having held two public meetings on this issue, there is a great public appetite for these schemes, particularly the warmer homes scheme. As to the eligibility for people to apply, is the SEAI doing advertising in the press and on radio?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Are there plans to do so?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The SEAI probably does not want to do so because it has 18,000 people on the list. Ultimately, however, the proof of success is people having the assessment done and then the works being on a list.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I will defer to my colleague, Mr. Halpin, in a moment. We are receiving approximately 1,200 applications a month at the moment, rising to approximately 1,500 in the wintertime. We have a significant list. I will not say it would be disingenuous to advertise this to get people onto a list but we have a significant number. Mr. Halpin may wish to make a comment on that.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Halpin for that.
In terms of the multi-unit developments, MUDs, while some of the management companies are finding it complex to manage, they are trying to avail of these schemes. I have to say it seems complex, from the consumer perspective, to engage with the SEAI. What is being done on that front?
I represent Dún Laoghaire where there are a lot of protected and listed buildings. The SEAI has a document, which is more like a thesis, on its website for pre-1940s homes. I suggest the SEAI needs to condense that document and make it more user-friendly. Perhaps that is for the communications side. How many applications or inquiries is the SEAI receiving for MUDs and listed buildings?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Dr. Byrne to send the committee a note on it. I am tight for time.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Byrne mentioned the low-cost loan scheme that the SEAI is proposing or that is being devised. Is that something for next year? Is that what Dr. Byrne said?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is good news. On building energy rating certifications, is it correct that there are penalties for those who devise the BERs?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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There is a timeframe by which they must produce the BER and they commit to that. Is that correct?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What is the penalty?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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On the 80% grants that were mentioned, there is confusion about these. Some people think there is an 80% grant available for deep retrofits as well. Is it proposed to include windows, doors and so on at some point?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Not at this point in time. When we look at this from a technical perspective and value-for-money perspective, windows and doors form part of the energy efficiency of the whole fabric of the home. Where someone is doing a deeper upgrade and doing the entire fabric of the home, they are included. To do them on an individual-measures basis might not necessarily get the kind of uplift that one would want-----
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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To get to B2.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. Reference was made earlier - there are so many witnesses that I cannot remember who said it - to the Dublin docklands and a district heating system.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The Poolbeg district heating system has been spoken about for more than a decade and nothing has happened. What is different now? I hear what Ms Buckley is saying about the need for infrastructure. She mentioned the docklands.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
What is different now is that the Department has been resourced to push this issue of energy efficiency in buildings. We have an assistant secretary, Mr. Quinlan, and a full division of the Department working on that. Mr. Quinlan is chairing a task force, as he said, about built efficiency. He is also sitting now on the group that is pushing the Dublin district heating scheme. We have made a long-standing pledge of €20 million from the climate action fund towards delivering that. We are engaged in discussions with Dublin City Council as to whether additional funding needs to be made available from within our funding arrangements and, in particular, perhaps under the national development plan, NDP. We will be putting a proposal to the Minister in the coming days in that space.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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My last question, because it is obviously a very important topic, is on national cybersecurity.
Recruitment for a number of posts was due to take place in the National Cyber Security Centre. I would like an update on the progress made over the past year with recruiting and filling roles.
Mr. Richard Browne:
We had 25 staff in early 2021. Today we have 56. We have a live chief technology officer recruitment process under way. Recently we completed a cybersecurity specialist competition. We have sanction for 62 staff this year. It might take until February to get all of these 62 roles in place. It will be a substantial increase in capability. We have more staffing to be agreed for 2024. We are dramatically increasing scale.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to the retrofit target for 500,000 houses by 2030, will Ms Buckley advise whether that target has been reduced?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That means 40,000 retrofits a year between 2023 and 2025 and 75,000 over the final five years. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The figure of 38,000 retrofits has been given, but only 8,400 deep retrofits were completed in 2022 to a building energy rating, BER, of B2. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If we are talking about 500,000 deep retrofits and we have done 8,400 in 2022, what is the schedule to ramp that up? At that rate you would achieve just under 60,000, which is one ninth of the target for deep retrofits.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The climate action plan calls for 500,000 cost optimum or B2 equivalents. So the first stage of the targets is 2025 when we will have 83,000 BER B2s and the remaining BER B2-equivalents made up to 120,000. At present 32,000 are done to BER B2 which means we need to do about 25,000 per year for the next two years to get to our 2025 target. From that point forward the ramp-up rate is up around 70,000 BER B2s per year out to the end of the decade.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Many of those will require deep retrofits to achieve a BER B2 rating. It would be a fair assessment to say that many of the houses that are being done are not the worst cases. They are not the houses with an F or G rating. Some of those are being done but what I am trying to understand is, if we are only doing 8,400 deep retrofits, and many of these homes will require a deep retrofit, and our target is still 500,000 by 2030, how we are going to climb that mountain in the short period of time.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the ramp-up rate?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What percentage of those homes will require a deep retrofit? Is there an analysis of that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I hear Dr. Byrne's reply. However, what is not clear from the reply is that if most of them require a deep retrofit, how will you go from just over 8,000 in a year that was Covid-free, to 70,000 or 80,000 a year? How are you going to multiply that by ten?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it a realistic target?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is a stretched target. How many workers are in the sector now?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The figure we had was about 4,500 at the start of 2021. We estimate we need about 17,000. Our colleagues in SOLAS have done the green skill report on the workers needed with green skills. On that basis the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science identified six strategic education and training boards, ETBs, to bring on the courses needed to be able to do the work.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Laois-Offaly ETB has a big one.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has Dr. Byrne concerns that the workforce can be reinforced to that level?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Yes. As we outlined earlier, one of the risks at the moment in a period of economic full employment is that we have sufficient workers and that we are attracting them. One of the value propositions within retrofit, it is important to say and we have seen some traction on this, is that you can work in retrofit in your local community and have a very long and healthy career in retrofit in your local community. That is valuable to people.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to the carbon reduction return in terms of retrofits, I just looked at the chapter on it and Figure 8.9 on the targeted reduction in the residential built environment sector and contributions made by SEAI residential community retrofit schemes, 2019 to 2030. From the figures in that it would appear that the target emission reductions for the residential built environment, as can be seen on the graph, is at 3 million tonnes. If you look at where you want to get, it is potentially a fraction of that; it is well below 1 million. Would Dr. Byrne disagree with that assessment?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Byrne just clarify this for me? Where does he reckon we are going to come in there? On that graph the lines are quite faint but it looks to be somewhere around about 0.7 million tonnes.
It is way down. It is about less than one fourth, or less than one quarter, of where we need to get to. Am I correct in that?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
I will come in on this, given the global nature of the targets. The target we need to achieve from residential emissions covers a number of different strands of work. SEAI’s work and its schemes are just one of those strands. They also include work done by local authorities and general improvements in residential efficiency as people upgrade their own homes, for example, putting in new windows and doors and the things we mentioned earlier. Can I ask Mr. Quinlan to speak to that briefly as well?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It just not just there is a bit of catching up to do according to that graph. If this will only achieve a quarter of the reductions in emissions that we need out of the projected 3 million tonnes, how do you make up three quarters? There is a huge gap and I am trying to figure out how it will be bridged. I take on board what Ms Buckley said, that some people are doing work themselves, but she and I know that most of it is being done with grant assistance. The local authority is small enough now because they have done the low-hanging fruit and have done a lot of good work. Some 75,000 homes have had some work done. However, the number actually receiving deep retrofits is 3,000. It is in the briefing; it is just over 3,000 last year. It is welcome that is happening but I refer to the pace it is happening at. There is a marathon and a half and more with it to be run to actually get to that.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
Regarding pretty much all of our carbon emission targets, they are incredibly challenging. One of the more successful ones we are delivering is in the housing sector on the residential side. There is no doubt that trying to ramp up to deliver on these targets in the context of full employment, capacity constraints in the system and supply constraints has been exceedingly difficult. However, we think we are on track to deliver towards 2030. I do not know if Mr. Quinlan or Mr. Deegan wants to come in with more detail on it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Quinlan can come in briefly because I have a number of other questions.
Mr. Barry Quinlan:
In a way, the chapter of the climate action plan that deals with the built environment is almost like the business case to 2030 to stay within the ceilings. That includes district heating, so we will have to do that at scale and it will be a big part of it. Biomethane and renewable gas is a major element of it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That has not even gotten going yet-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Show me where the plants are. We only need a couple - that is all.
Mr. Barry Quinlan:
We have a strategy. Much of this working through the task force. Residential retrofit supported by SEAI is only one element of it. That entire chapter and all the actions need to be delivered to stay within the ceiling. We are one of the sectors about which the EPA would say that the measures are in place, if they are delivered, to stay within the ceiling.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is Ms Buckley confident we will reach our overall targets of 50% reduction?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
Some 31%. We have quite a lot of work to do. The plans we have in place, when allied with what is coming through on climate action plan 2024, CAP24, are consistent with us meeting the targets. However, I do not deny there is a huge delivery challenge for us, and we are up for it. Our Department is working on all fronts to do it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that the Department, society and everybody else has to play their part; it is not just Ms Buckley’s Department. The fines for failure to meet the targets are in the billions. Is that right?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
We prefer to try to make sure everybody achieves their targets here. If we have to achieve compliance through other routes - there is a European sharing arrangement we could avail of - the costs would be very high. It is hard to calculate them at the moment because it would be dependent on what would be charged for emissions sharing at that point in time. Certainly, we would be much better off spending that money here at home doing things such as retrofits than doing that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are we talking about more than €2 billion? Is it €1 billion or €2 billion? Which is it?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can I bring in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on that?
Mr. Ken Cleary:
Absolutely. I can give a range of figures that we calculated and published. We suggest that with regard to the effort sharing regulation, which is the emissions portion of our 2030 target that applies to the non-emissions trading system, non-ETS, sector, the compliance costs, should we fail to reach our targets, are in the range of €3.5 billion to €8.1 billion over the decade. That requires caveats because there are many unknowns in this question.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. Cleary repeat those figures?
Mr. Ken Cleary:
The figures are €3.5 billion to €8.1 billion. That estimate is based on the impact of previous climate action plans. There are two factors - quantity and price. Quantity might be how much we fall short of our target, and one has to look at various scenarios on that. The scenarios we looked at in this paper were the EPA’s assessment of Climate Action Plan 2021 in terms of with existing measures and with additional measures. The EPA found that in Climate Action Plan 2021, there would be a shortfall to 2030 based on its assessment of those policies. Climate Action Plan 2021 has obviously been updated with Climate Action Plan 2023 and will be further updated with the 2024 action plan. That is on the quantity side of it.
On the price side of the equation, as the Secretary General noted, it is very difficult to attach a realistic value to it. Regarding the compliance system that will apply at European level, we will have to purchase from member states that over-achieve versus their targets. It is not dependent on anything objective, rather, it is dependent on the relative progress made by other member states and how they might choose to price it.
We put price into this equation by looking at the price of an ETS allowance on the basis there was no other objective figure we could refer to. That is how we produced a range of €3.5 billion to €8.1 billion. As I said, there are many caveats with those figures. The point the Secretary General made is that there is obviously no compliance cost should we achieve our targets and that is what Government policy works and aims towards.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many household units are currently on the waiting list for surveys?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Back at the previous hearing in March when the Dr. Byrne was in, he stated that the waiting time between an application being received and the survey being completed was 17 months, as I recall it. What is happening there now?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is 20 months. Is that across the better energy warmer homes scheme, the better energy scheme, which is the 80% one, as I understand it, and the national retrofit scheme, which is the 50%? Is it across the three of those?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is 20 months on the better energy warmer homes scheme, which is the free scheme.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is the 80%.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a wait time though on the one-stop shop scheme.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The one-stop shop is approved by SEAI, which appoints the contractor.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many are there now? I know at the start it was a bit slow to get going.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there enough?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In the interest of time, regarding the more than 50% requiring a re-work, in other words, work was not carried out properly. The level of inspection is 8% in one of the schemes. I have come across situations where some pieces of work were left in kind of an odd way, to put it mildly. Small things were left out or whatever. Homeowners would complain about trying to get it resolved. Where do people go in that case? For example, if a contractor carries out work and there is a problem left behind, how can homeowners get that resolved quickly?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What percentage of those in the free scheme are inspected?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
-----were inspected. The reworks are fully resolved because we are in full control of the contractors.
On the other scheme, it is between the homeowner and the contractor. We have an inspection system, however, and where we identify a problem on an inspection, we require the contractor to do the reworks, otherwise they achieve penalty points. If they get enough penalty points, they are deregistered from our system, so there is an incentive for the contractor to go back-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has the SEAI deregistered anyone?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has the SEAI deregistered anyone across the three schemes?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Yes, we have. On the warmer homes scheme, we tend not to because it is a procured scheme and we have 100% on the reworks. On the better energy homes scheme, we have deregistered somewhere in the region of 700 contractors since 2019. The majority of those, to be clear, are because they have not renewed insurance or tax compliance and things like that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Byrne will understand that we have a problem with self-certification in this country. We have many legacy problems because of a dependence on self-certification. The point I am making to Dr. Byrne is that in terms of value for money and good outcomes, it is very important that the SEAI is in control. However, it does carry out full inspections across the three schemes on a targeted basis.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it measured afterwards for BER?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I am going to bring in Deputy Catherine Murphy. She has ten minutes.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I would hate to think that we would be doing anything other than trying to achieve our targets. The idea of buying compliance would mean we are going to have to keep on buying compliance. I asked Dr. Byrne about the economies of scale on the Fingal project and one of the things he said was that there was a bit of resistance in that. Is there resistance in other areas? I have seen it myself. An industrial campus in my area has a project it is going to be undertaking that will project surplus energy. It wanted to use that energy with a new housing estate for district heating. The developer did not seem to want to or did not think it was a good idea and was not buying into it. Is that same resistance happening in other areas? Is there good cross-departmental work? I am thinking, for example, of the rooftop revolution in terms of solar panels in schools, which has underachieved. Where are there bottlenecks there that could be overcome?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
It is an extremely good question. I should say that on solar in schools, it has been a slower roll-out than we intended. However, we are getting there and we do have agreement in that space now so we will be starting the solar school roll-out in conjunction with the Department of Education very soon. We are very pleased that is going to happen and it will be announced shortly.
Where we have a challenge is to get people to focus on the climate change changes they need to do alongside the other demands and pressures they have. A good example of that would be asking the Department of Education school building programme to look not just at the extra classrooms it needs, and no doubt the committee has been asking it for that separately because of all the needs and special needs and all of that, and yet at the same time the need to retrofit its buildings. It is a challenge of capacity within the organisations and within the building sector. Part of how we manage to try to drive that is to ensure there is clear ministerial responsibility for emissions ceilings, in order that people understand that they actually own the problem and are going to have to deliver on the problem.
We have some very good partners. The problem now is not convincing people; it is getting people to prioritise in the sense that they have their own priorities, which no doubt the Deputy has in this committee, and asking them why they are not doing those other things, if you know what I mean.
The other place we need to go to is to make sure we have clarity around lines of capital funding. The NDP as it currently stands, does not. It includes a huge funding stream for the SEAI schemes and a huge amount for funding for national broadband. There is less clarity, however, around funding for those public sector retrofits we are talking about, which the school scheme would come under. We have been working very closely with our colleagues at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. The Deputy will note that the Minister secured Government approval, as part of the setting aside of additional Exchequer returns, for a scheme that will start from 2026 onwards for major public investment and for climate and nature also. It very specifically has a climate and nature element to it.
Our task now is to be shovel ready when that scheme starts to roll through. It is to get projects up to the point where they are doing that for the sorts of things we are talking about, such as the pathfinder scheme I mentioned, which is looking for additional funding from the EU to be matched, hopefully, by funding in Ireland and all that. Essentially, our challenge is to make sure people know there is a steady stream of funding that will be coming through so if they walk up to the door, they will get through it and can start the projects. The challenge is to deliver on that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What about the excess energy that is wasted?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
Certainly, we have excess energy wasted. We have a challenge around district heating schemes. It is not something Ireland has done to any great extent before. We have to put in place the regulatory and commercial environment to deliver on it so people can have security around that. The Deputy will know there was a recent report published by the Department in that space.
We need to do a few clear pathfinder projects, one of which I mentioned already, that is, the Dublin district heating project. There is an innovative project in south Dublin that uses excess waste from a data centre, which is a very interesting innovation and something we could certainly learn from. We waste a lot of heat at the moment in this country and we should be trying to use it much more effectively. That is part of why we are working so very hard in that space.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There are small things, for example, with regard to schools if we are asking them to prioritise certain things. In my constituency, it will be people asking if they can find a place for a child, and that will be the number one priority.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The here and now in many ways takes precedence. If Ms Buckley is talking to the Department of Education, it is going to be important to put a system in place to make sure it is rolled out because very often, the principal or board of management will become the project manager for something like this. I know the challenge for a school when it has an extension or whatever. I do not think we can overlook the "How?" with regard to this. I would want to be convinced that the Department of Education is not just firing money at the schools and saying "Do this", but is considering the "How" at the same time. It simply will not get done if we do not consider the "How".
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
We also need to convince people that this is a way of them controlling their own costs for their own heating and the heating of the school. Obviously, that is always a huge burden on schools to manage their own cost base. Therefore, if we can convince people that this is one of the ways they can reduce the cost of running the school then we can help deliver that. The point is very well made, however. We will be working very actively with the Department of Education to make sure we make this as pain-free as possible for schools.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there an estimate of the building rating of the entire housing stock? I presume each has a profile and all of that.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
I think C3 is the global estimate but Irish housing stock is very poor in terms of heat management. It is 7% less efficient than the EU norms. We also have an unusual type of housing stock in this country in the sense that we have an awful lot of one-off rural homes that are heated by oil or gas cylinders and are poorly insulated, whereas in many other EU states, they would have big apartment blocks that are already on district heating schemes and so forth. We have a peculiar challenge in this country, which is why we are investing so much in the SEAI to drive its agenda. What the SEAI and what we are trying to do in this country is relatively unique in the world, never mind in Europe. It is an enormously ambitious target we are trying to deliver on and it is great that we have an effective organisation to do it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That dispersed pattern of settlement we have is something we talk about routinely on different things with regard to services and costs and things like that. Does that make it more expensive to do the retrofits relative to other countries?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
A very cost-efficient way of heating homes is through district heating whereas if we have dispersed housing, we cannot do district heating.
This could cover around 51% of Irish housing units if we rolled it out at the absolute maximum extent, which would be some way off. In other countries I believe that district heating is at much higher multiples of that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can one retrofit district heating in a pre-existing housing estate?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It would be like Bord Gáis rolling out pipes.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay, but obviously there is a cost.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If one does it in new estates they would be built to a much higher energy rating anyway.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On local authority housing and approved housing bodies, there are people there with whom the Department can deal with directly. The gap in the funding is very real in not being able to realise an ambition and wanting to realise that ambition. Has the Department done an assessment or does it have information from the local authorities about where those impediments are, or if parts of the country are performing better?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can I just stop Mr. Walsh there? This is all disbursed and the big challenge is to pull this all together. There is one Department dealing with local authorities with the same scheme. Again, it is giving them the money and saying, "Okay, you do that" but not giving them enough to do it. One might as well not give it to them at all if they have no budget to pull it together. Whose job is that? Is it the Department?
Mr. William Walsh:
From the perspective of the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, we have excellent relationships and we do work with a number of local authorities. The Deputy mentioned Fingal. We have excellent relationships in some of our communities' programmes in places like Tipperary. As a collective and the local authority system we have moved towards that relationship with the overall body that represents each of the local authorities. We are finding ourselves, as the national retrofit delivery body, moving towards a better relationship. I understand the Deputy's question relates to funding. From a departmental perspective, that discussion is probably is between Departments and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will need to go elsewhere for that answer. Can I just pull the witness up here? The Cathaoirleach and I have picked up on something that was said about the body that deals with all the local authorities, which is the County and City Management Association. The last time we looked we were living in a democracy. It is quite extraordinary that there is no engagement with the people who are elected. It might be worth considering that there would be engagement between the associations and the councillors, where I do not believe there currently is any. If we were in another jurisdiction with a properly functioning local government system that is where the SEAI would go first. I am sorry but it is a soapbox that some of us have. It pretty much underscores that we have a system of local administration as opposed to a system local government. Sorry for the soapbox.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy. It is also a hobbyhorse of mine.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
On that, local authorities are drawing up their own local climate action plans. This is really going to drive a lot of that agenda around local authority housing retrofit. It is, relatively speaking, low hanging fruit if the authorities have the funding. It is the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage that manages the local authority systems.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is also an older stock.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Some of those plans have been adopted.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I would say to the witnesses, and to the Secretaries General of all Departments, that local authority in any other democracy means that those who are elected. With regard to the dealings what is happening is frightening, even since I came off the local authority nearly 13 years ago. Funding comes from various Government Departments about which councillors know nothing and are completely in the dark. The decision is made on where it is to be spent. It could be spent on the pet projects of senior staff in various counties and councillors have no say in it whatsoever. Member of the public stop councillors and ask, "Why is that happening?", but the councillors have no answer. Deputies also have no answers even though we are supposed to be briefed in the same way as councillors on spending and in our interactions with the management of the councils. It is awful. We must have the worst system or the most distanced power system of local government on the planet. I am aware that some of it is policy, but I can understand from the senior officials' point of view that it would materialise like this: obviously it is nice for the County and City Management Association.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
The committee will be aware that a number of officials sitting on this side of the table are ex-Custom House and would have come from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage - this is fundamentally what the Department is - including myself. I remember being told-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Those at the top of the Civil Service just need to remind themselves that in the way of elections the legal local authority is those who make up the chamber. That is where the buck stops. There is an elected tier there that is in charge of policy but they are being kept completely in the dark. The Deputy may also see it in Kildare where funding is going down on a regular basis. The councillors have absolutely no input whatsoever and decisions are being made without them. It is completely undemocratic. We might as well call it mini dictatorships. That needs to change. It would not be tolerated across Europe or in other countries.
On the shallow retrofits, some 90,000 were completed under the better energy or warmer home scheme - or whatever it was called at the time - in 2011. By 2015 this figure had fallen to 62,000. By 2022 it was just over 10,000. Will the witnesses tell me what is happening there? I believe there is an accepted view that with some of the shallow retrofits one can actually achieve more - or maybe actually slow down in terms of where they are - and get them up a couple of stages with a modest amount of money.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We also discussed this at a previous committee meeting. The big changes over the better energy homes into individual measures scheme came from 2011. We came to a particular economic time then, especially in the building sector, when there was an effective stop in the building sector. The policy put in a lot of grants and supports for people to undertake retrofit, to get it done and also to engage construction workers who might have been displaced to other parts of the sector. There was also a home renovation incentive, which was an additional tax incentive with a grant put in place. The members have the figures in front of them where they can see the bundle of homes done in that period of time came down a bit but it is coming back up again. We can see that many of the homes, such as the low-hanging fruit and those that were easy to hit, had been done in that period of time.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Byrne also clarify a point on the better energy and warmer homes schemes. Replacing single-glazed windows was not in the scheme until one or two years ago. The SEAI then did a pilot that was very successful, mainly in south Dublin. Is this now available throughout the State where there are single-glazed windows.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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But in answer to the question-----
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I am coming to it. With the windows, we do a survey of all the homes that are in the scheme. The surveyor goes out to look and see what is the assessment for that particular home and those measures are allocated to a contractor. Where it is appropriate to replace windows we replace windows. There is a piece around the scheme-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Byrne said, "Where it is appropriate". I am asking the question. If the surveyor goes to a house that needs work done to it and in which a pensioner or a person who has serious health issues is living, will those windows be changed to double-glazed windows? Will they be at least double glazed?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There are examples where the heat is still flying out through the windows and doors whatever works have been done. These are older, single-glazed windows like the ones in Deputy Burke's office letting the heat out of Leinster House.
We see windows with cracked glass.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I appreciate what the Deputy is saying, but at this point and at this level I cannot get into specific individual incidences. We survey the home and look at the best and most appropriate measures. We have increased the number of windows we are doing on the scheme. Windows are part of the warmer homes scheme and we do them. One of the points I have to make is that we have to manage expectations as well within the core work-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a policy of changing single-glazed windows to double-glazed windows? That is what I am trying to drive at.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In other words, does the SEAI leave single-glazed windows in place when it walks away from a home? That is the question.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to pin Dr. Byrne down on this.
Mr. William Walsh:
Typically we would replaced single-glazed windows with something better. If there is a specific constituent or a specific case that the Deputy needs to talk to us about, we are more than happy to do so. As Dr. Byrne mentioned, when a homeowner understands they are getting the better energy warmer homes programme they can look to their neighbour up the road who got A, B, C and D on the basis that their house needed it, but the homeowner down the road might get A, B and C.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Single glazing is single glazing, right?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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One pane of glass has the same heat retention value whether it is in Mr. Walsh's house or my house. What I am trying to get to is this: are we still dealing with situations where the SEAI will allow work to be done on a house and it may be left with single-glazed windows in it after that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It will not, thanks.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It took me a while to get to that. That is what I wanted to clarify.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will send the Chair the case.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I can see the improvements, but I was trying to clarify the actual position now. In other words, if the SEAI is doing attic insulation in a home that has single-glazed windows, would it be left with single-glazed windows? I think the SEAI has clarified the matter. The Accounting Officer has done it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I acknowledge that. It certainly makes a huge difference in terms of heat retention, fuel costs and other costs, and emissions.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely. Neighbourhood health improves where there are fewer fumes in the estate. It puts more money in people's pockets. As for the schemes overall, has the focus shifted to increasing the energy rating of existing B and C homes to A or B2? Have we moved away from bringing the Fs and the Gs up one or two steps? I am asking about those in really low energy-rated households, who typically tend to be pensioners. Has there been a shift away from helping them, and towards trying to bring homes from B to A, or from C to B?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many of those homes are still out there?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We know that the average BER across the country is C3. Perhaps my colleague Mr. Durkan can give a figure for the breakdown across the BER categories. We have all the data on which categories are out there. The priority group under the warmer homes programme is the Es, Fs and Gs. The other programmes are demand-led programmes and it really depends on who applies. I can confirm that on the one-stop shop programme, the average starting point across semi-detached houses is E1 and the average end point is A2.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, what is the starting point?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
A BER of E1. On the one-stop shop, again, the average starting point across mid-terraced homes is E1 and the average starting point across apartments is G. Those are the averages. That is not to say there are not Cs and Bs in there but they are demand-led schemes so whoever applies and qualifies get the grants.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Roughly 75,000 out of 140,000 shallow retrofits, as they have been described, have been done across social housing, along with 3,321 deep retrofits. Is that correct? What kind of engagement is there with approved housing bodies, AHBs? As they do not have a purchase scheme, they tend to own the whole estate so they are an easy audience. It is easier to capture them. What is being done with the AHBs?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We have significant working relationships with the AHBs. On the one-stop shop schemes, approximately 50% of applications come from AHBs. At the completion level, more of them are being completed. What we are seeing, and we have spoken on this point at the committee before, is aggregation. When a contractor comes on site, they have a set-up cost, so they want to come along and do a street of houses or a whole housing estate. We can achieve that and we are achieving that with the AHBs.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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When the SEAI goes into a local authority estate - typically two-up-two-downs and small terraced houses - it does the deep retrofit. I am thinking of a particular estate of maybe 35 local authority homes and 25 private homes, with gaps in between. The pensioner in the middle is still in the same situation as they were 20 years ago. The house on each side has been externally wrapped and heat pumped - the whole lot. What can be done in such cases? The loan situation for someone who is on a pension of a couple of hundred euros per week does not suffice. They will have huge energy costs, relative to others, because a huge part of their income will be going on energy. That is before we mention the carbon emissions, etc. What is being done? Are any incentives being offered where there are those gaps?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
As we referred to earlier in the meeting, we have done a pilot programme with Fingal County Council. The exact situation that has been outlined exists in the Strandmill estate, where a number of homes are owned by the local authority and a number in the middle are privately owned. The proof of concept was to get the same contractor to do all of the homes in one sitting. The contractor gets the economy of scale in terms of setting up, but we can get a number of homes and a mix of homes also. Fundamentally, the home is the home - the difference is who lives in it and who pays. We worked that through and we have some learnings from it. We will try to accelerate and roll those out with other local authorities and scale it up.
In terms of the specifics, last year the attic and cavity grant increased to approximately 80% of the value of the works. We are still seeing a fair degree of take-up on that. Nearly 14,000 of those projects have been done this year so far. The local authority programme at Strandmill is the programme we are going to see elsewhere.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The gap between the front and back walls of some of these houses is just 4 m. I am talking about a case in which No. 30 is done, No. 31 is not done, and No. 32 is done. The gap in between is 13.5 ft, or a little over 4 m. Literally, that is all it is. Even an external wrap on the back and front walls of a terraced house - that is all - would bring huge benefits. Mr. Durkan wants to come in.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Durkan for the information.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Mr. Ken Cleary:
This is a little bit beyond the remit of the SEAI and the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications, but it is important to note that the eligibility for the warmer homes scheme has been considerably expanded by the Government over the past few years, particularly through expansions of eligibility for the fuel allowance. The income threshold for those over the age of 70 is now €500 for a single person and €1,000 for a couple. If someone is in receipt of the fuel allowance, they are eligible for the warmer homes scheme. Similarly, a number of income disregards have been introduced to the means test for the fuel allowance, and that has considerably expanded it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Surely the consequence of bringing more people is to make them eligible.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, I get that. That is welcome. Deputy Murphy is next.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will finish off with a couple of points on the recommendations from the previous time the SEAI met the Committee of Public Accounts and the report we wrote. The review of the estimation techniques has been taken on board by the Department. We expect to see that happen next year. What work has started in order to ensure the review happens in 2024?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Ms Margie McCarthy:
The Deputy will have seen the recommendations. We would like to reinforce or re-emphasise that the estimation techniques and methodologies that are adopted by the SEAI in this are the ones recognised by the European Commission through the energy-efficiency directive.
We conduct reviews looking at best practice and have regular engagement with the International Energy Agency on correcting those and ensuring that the assumptions are being as conservative and realistic as possible.
The second point I would make is that the assumptions we make in those estimations are based on measured data. We did take measurements. That was in the report, and the committee has probably seen that. We then extrapolate from them for other fuel types and other dwellings, so those assumptions are based on what was measured originally.
We take the point that the original assumptions and measurements were done in 2013 but we also recognise the thermodynamics around those estimations do not change. Our intention is to obtain more measured data. We are doing a small study on the effectiveness of heat pumps that will allow us to look at the data sharing agreements with end users as one part of the exercise. We will then look at an independent look at our assumptions.
We are working closely with the utility providers to ensure we can get access to data around which there are GDPR constraints. We also note that the CRU was working on a code for smart meter data access, which is due to come out in 2024. We hope this will be a significant change for us in terms of being able to get end user data. This is essential. Everything we do is on the basis of evidence and data.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Obviously, there will be improvements as we go on. I presume there are GDPR issues relating to it. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to it in respect of energy consumption in a household. It is a pretty obvious metric.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The other recommendation was that the Department and the SEAI should continue to explore opportunities for access and use of actual energy consumption data at individual property level. This is pretty much-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Of course, energy costs have changed.
Ms Margie McCarthy:
The pricing changes. We are responsible for the statistical analysis of energy use and producing the energy balance statistical information every year, so we are very engaged when it comes to energy pricing and where and what energy is be used to fuel whatever sector. All of this feeds into our research and estimations. Ultimately, gaining access to individual end user data will involve the complexity of the GDPR but further engagement with the utilities is an essential part of our plans for next year.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have some questions about EVs, which is Mr. Meally's gig. Regarding the spend on them and value for money, last year, €16,299 was provided in grants for EVs along with €8,279 for home-charging points. Is this correct? We have had this discussion previously. What troubles me slightly is the value we are getting from that. I know a cap was put on the price of electric vehicles. Can Mr. Meally re-state what the maximum purchase price is?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So last year, we spent €64 million. Is it correct that last year, there were 1,467 BMWs, 47 Jaguars, 439 Mercedes-Benz and 315 Land Rovers?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What happened in 2021?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are we still subsidising because some of these manufacturers do not make low-end cars? They are not like Toyota where you can buy a very basic model or a very expensive one. In the case of BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz or Land Rover, even the bottom end would be counted as relatively luxurious by most of us. Are we still funding the purchase of these cars?
Mr. Declan Meally:
No. The grants changed and the limit was introduced in 2021 so that is why the number would have gone up. We had five Jaguars in 2022. That was overall in terms of just under 11,000 of the cars. The numbers have decreased dramatically. The really high-end use relates to Volkswagen and Hyundai in terms of the cars that are there, so there has been a significant reduction in the vehicles referred to by An Cathaoirleach, such as BMWs and Jaguars. Because it produces the Mini, BMW is part of that. They are much smaller than the BMW i3. It is only in the 200s.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was the 2030 target 1 million at one stage?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is it now?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the 2025 target again?
Mr. Declan Meally:
It is 175,000, and we are well on track for that. Our anticipated forecast is that in respect of the price changes around 2025 relating to petrol and diesel in terms of the internal combustion engine, petrol and diesel cars and the electric car will be around the same price. Again, it is already showing that in terms of total cost of ownership, an electric car is much cheaper to run.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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However, we will still require about 120,000 new electric vehicles per year on the road.
Mr. Declan Meally:
In terms of transport activity, we are working across the board with the Department of Transport in terms of reducing the number of miles driven - not the target as it is the same. We are also looking at the number of cars that are on the road, so taking that off as well in terms of reductions. We are on track in terms of the 950,000 target for the number of electric cars on the road.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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At the moment, 160,000 electric cars are on the road. We need to get about 120,000 per year on the road to reach that target of 950,000.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The lack of charging points continues to be a complaint from the public.
Mr. Declan Meally:
The Department of Transport is working on a new charging strategy that is out for consultation. The way we look at it is that 80% of the charging will be done at home. Anybody who drives an electric car knows that you just use home charging overnight when you are not using the car. It is cheapest place to charge the car.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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People going to Kerry complain about the queue for the charger at the plaza.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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People on long journeys to places such as Mayo, for example, have to stop.
Mr. Declan Meally:
The whole idea is about planning the journey. If you are going to a friend's house, there might be an opportunity to plug in and use what we call the granny lead. It is open to relatives to put in a charge point so that others in the family can use it if they have EVs.
Regarding hotels, destination chargers are grant aided. Most hotels have locations for them for an overnight stay.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There are still problems on the motorways.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is where a person is in a queue and there are two more people in front and each of them is going to take half an hour at least to get a quick charge.
Mr. Declan Meally:
The behaviour is that people are just doing enough to get themselves home, so a person might only stop for ten or 15 minutes. I have waited at a charge point knowing that somebody else is there. They will not be staying for very long because the charges are so fast now, up to 150 kW, so it is ten or 15 minutes you could be waiting and having your cup of coffee. It is a matter of increasing that. Transport Infrastructure Ireland is now working with the Department of Transport on improving the public charging along the motorways. A lot more public chargers are being installed. The idea on the motorway is literally a splash and dash, so to speak, to get you home to your charge point where it is much cheaper.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Some people complain about the fact they just about make it. The red light on for the last ten or 15 miles. I know the Department of Transport will have the largest role in this, but you are the director of business for the public sector and transport. More photographs were taken on non-sitting days of the Dáil of Ministers on the 120 electric buses, 90 of which were designated for Dublin. I was wondering why there was still noise coming from buses around Dublin because, in my innocence, I thought that at this stage we would see all of these flying about, but I still see the diesel ones going around and these 120 buses are parked up. There is the cost of them and the fact the charging points are not in place. What is happening in this regard and what role have you in it?
Mr. Declan Meally:
We have a very limited role because it is through the National Transport Authority, NTA. We have worked with it in helping to co-fund some of the large charging points through our community scheme for the buses. Putting in the charge hub in Athlone is one example. We have also been working with the community in Dingle, which has got an electric bus for the Local Link. We are working with them to help them understand the electricity requirements, but mostly the non-domestic space is through the Department of Transport and the national roads agency.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is good if it is happening in Dingle with the Local Link
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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However, here we have 120 buses. Was there any joined-up thinking between yourselves, the NTA and Department of Transport to knock heads together before we spent the money? How much did each of those buses cost?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Hundreds of thousands. Are we talking about €300,000 or €400,000 each?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, multiplied by 120, and they are sitting now in depots. The optics and the reality of it are terrible. We are trying to reduce our carbon emissions and this is the answer. It was announced a number of times. As I said, a lot of photographs were taken of them and I thought they were going to be rolled out. The public is astonished to see that they are still in depots. While I recognise it is not directly within your remit, you are meeting these people. It needs to be sorted and get them on road and rolling as soon as possible
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps before the next tranche of them is bought, we should ensure we have charging points for them. The next ones might be inter-city buses doing longer journeys, so it is a case of having charging points in place for them before it is done. Deputy Murphy, have you an issue you want to come back in on?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have one question I want to go back to. I have given the information to the Secretary General regarding those charging points. If I was buying a car and I was going to have a charging point, I would expect that when the charging point was installed in my house, and we are talking about 80%, nobody could impede me charging my car. It came as a complete shock to me that that could be turned off remotely. How do we stop that kind of thing from happening?
Mr. Declan Meally:
To be honest, I was not aware of that either. The charge point grant is given to the person to get the charge point installed in their home, so the person is buying it and owns the equipment. As the Secretary General responded, we will take it away and look into it, but I am not aware of why somebody would be turning it off remotely unless it had not been paid for. We are happy to look into the matter
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It can be absolutely guaranteed that in this case they paid for it. I could not get my head around that. We have to see where the problem arose there, not from the individual's perspective but how it can happen and to stop it from happening in the future so that people can be assured that, if they have a point installed at home, it is secure.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr Mulligan, I want to ask about the national broadband plan, which is progressing. We have had a number of discussions on this over recent years. We have the figure for the expenditure on it last year. Regarding the specific milestone that was not achieved in 2022, what exactly was that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What was the shortfall? Was it 130,000 in total over the two- or three-year period?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No, I know that. I remember seeing that and I spoke to you before about that. What was the original target before it was reprofiled?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A shortfall of 28,000. Ms Buckley, the Department obviously made a forecasting error. How did that happen in 2022 because, last year, things were moving along?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In the targets set.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, for broadband.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The figures were revised.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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But the figures that were revised downwards were missed. Is that correct?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
As you have just noted, to some degree, although Mr. Mulligan is shaking his head, so I do not want to misspeak, where we are at in terms of ramping up, there are constraints in the way the broadband was being rolled out. One of the constraints, obviously, was making sure a sufficient number of poles were put up. To get that working smoothly took some time over 2021 and 2022, to iron out the wrinkles that post-dated the Covid space. We are in a very different place in 2023. They are now exceeding where they were forecast to be in 2023. They were due to be at 185,000 premises passed by the end of January next year, but we have over 200,000 at this point, so it will be a very substantially changed picture this year compared with last year.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So nearly 40% is done at the moment.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is welcome. Mr. Mulligan, what is the uptake of fibre broadband where it has been provided?
Mr. Fergal Mulligan:
On average, it is around 40%, which is ahead of target. There are four or five counties where it is over 50%. That depends on when the deployment area is finished. For any county that is 12 months post-deployment, it is at least 40%, and for a number of counties it is more than 50%.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the lowest?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the reason for this that they may already be serviced by reasonably good quality broadband?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there an issue with the 37% or 38% that are easiest to reach being done but as the scheme moves on the last 10% or 20% will be difficult to do? There is a lot more cable and longer distances.
Mr. Fergal Mulligan:
No, we do not believe so. In essence, the 6,000 premises are all very rural and all outside villages so they are all particularly difficult. NBI is not cherry-picking or going after the low-hanging fruit per se. The challenges it is experiencing this year will be the same challenges in 2026. I do not see any change.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
In fact, it might be worth pointing out that it is currently doing the Black Valley in County Kerry, which is a particularly difficult and inaccessible place. Broadband is currently being rolled out in the Black Valley. Amazingly, everybody in the Black Valley, which I believe did not even have a proper phone service up to now, will be able to access high-speed broadband by the middle of next year.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was the last place reached by the rural electrification scheme.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
Exactly. That is why it is particularly nice to say that it is coming midstream. NBI is also accelerating the roll-out to the islands. A number of islands have already been served and it is bringing forward the majority of islands by a few months or up to 12 or 16 months. Places that in the past were hard to reach for things like electrification are being done in an accelerated way for broadband.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The completion date for the overall contract is 2027. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a number of entities involved here. It is kind of unusual in that NBI is overlaying Eir infrastructure in terms of ducting and using its poles. What is the current situation regarding the leasing of those individual poles from Eir? How much is that costing per annum?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So it still stands at that figure. There are problems with a lot of ducting being blocked, according to replies given to us before. Is the scheme still running into problems in accessing that ducting?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This is a huge spend of public money - €2.7 billion for the overall scheme. In terms of security for the future investment, can the witnesses explain the Eir infrastructure? Eir is a private entity and eight out of ten members on the board of NBI represent a private entity. From a public spending point of view, are there risks around access to the infrastructure that is owned by Eir at any point during the 25 years or after the 25 years? How is that guaranteed?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not asking whether Mr. Mulligan sees it or not; I am asking how it is guaranteed.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The last 25 years went very quick. In year 26, what happens? Let us say Eir was sold to whoever.
Mr. Fergal Mulligan:
No matter who owns that pole and duct network, it is currently regulated and will continue to be regulated because it will have significant market power. Once it has significant market power, which we expect it will because it will be the only pole and duct company in the area regardless of who owns it, regulation will constantly cover the access to that infrastructure.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the CRU the only thing that stands between us if somebody bought that company, decided to be bolshy about it and told us to take a running jump and that we could not use that after year 26?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A new owner could make it difficult.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There are thousands of miles now, or certainly hundreds of miles, of cable overlaid on top of Eir cable and miles of ducting belonging to Eir.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely. That is why I am raising it.
Mr. Fergal Mulligan:
That is why even the European Commission is bringing in the Gigabit Infrastructure Act, which is going through the Commission at the moment. It will be in force by March next year. There is going to be a local law on top of regulation that will ensure access to this critical infrastructure. That is not just Eir's but other companies' as well.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How much is being paid to Eir? We have one representative on the nine-person board of NBI who represents the public interest. How much is being paid to Eir for use of that infrastructure?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It would effectively wind up with about a quarter of the cost or little over that. Some 28% or 29% of the cost of the scheme will go to Eir.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Out of that €2.7 billion, somewhere around €800 million will finish up with Eir.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It also got the easier-to-reach premises before the scheme was actually contracted out. Mr. Mulligan and I both know bidders were lost over that. Bidders pulled out. Significant bidders like the ESB and so on pulled out after that. Eir would appear to be in a fairly good position if it gets €800 million for use of the infrastructure. It also has the 250,000 easiest to reach homes, which brought down the targets to be done under the national broadband scheme from 750,000 or 800,000 homes and premises to in the region of 540,000, as I recall it. It puts Eir in a strong position financially but also in terms of control of infrastructure, does it not?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The maps show that it owns the doughnut around a lot of towns and villages-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----or the doughnut of houses around each one. In other words, you have to get by it.
Mr. Fergal Mulligan:
That happened in 2017. We went through a lot of committee meetings here discussing that. As the Cathaoirleach will know, the European Commission said there was nothing we could do about that. Eir is a commercial company and is free to invest. It did create problems for the procurement process, as the Cathaoirleach will know. At the end of the day the positive news from that was that, with the advent of Covid, there were 340,000 premises with full fibre broadband from Eir well in advance of the NBP being rolled out. It did bring a very positive news story.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is a good one. Before an election, it is a good news story. I understand that. What I am asking is whether is creates a long-term problem. That is my concern.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are good at doing easy wins in this country but we are not that good at looking beyond that. That is the point I am making.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
The key lesson here is that we have to maintain a strong regulatory framework for infrastructure in the space. We will always have dominant providers and Eir, regardless of the owner, will continue to own a lot of the infrastructure here. We have to make sure our regulatory structure is as robust as possible to counteract that monopoly power.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with Ms Buckley on that. We are going to need strong regulations.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have covered a lot of ground. I thank the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, the SEAI, and the representative from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Mr. Cleary, for attending and for the information provided. I know that a lot of work has been done in preparing for this meeting and providing documents. I also thank Mr. McCarthy and the Comptroller and Auditor General's office for attending and for their assistance today.
Is it agreed that the clerk to the committee will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and the briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.