Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Senators Frances Black and Rónán Mullen. We have an engagement with representatives from IBEC; Mr. Fergal O'Brien, executive director, lobbying and influence; Ms Nikki Gallagher, head of public affairs; and Mr. Michael D'Arcy, programme lead for the IBEC-CBI joint business council. On behalf of our committee, I welcome them to the meeting.

I will read the note on parliamentary privilege, which we read for all of our witnesses. There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who are to give evidence from locations outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the meeting should be given. They should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to that person or entity's good name.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I call on Mr. O'Brien to make his opening statement.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to meet with it today, to discuss the importance of the all-island economy to Irish business and the work that IBEC is doing through our peace and prosperity campaign to mark the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement. The anniversary of the agreement is a significant event for business in both jurisdictions on the island of Ireland; one that requires reflection on what has been achieved and also consideration of how it can continue to underpin our future prosperity on this island.

Over the past 25 years, the Good Friday Agreement has brought an incalculable benefit in the reduction in violence and deaths both on the island of Ireland and in Britain. There have been other benefits to peace through growing, if uneven, levels of prosperity and improved quality of life as a direct result. We see that this peace dividend has been witnessed by our members throughout the past two and a half decades in substantial ways, which have benefited their ability to invest and grow on the island and across the globe. It is also a useful and important time to reflect on the role of business in growing commercial, cultural and social ties throughout the island of Ireland. For the past five decades since 1973, IBEC has been involved with the all-island business community, including through our joint business council with our counterparts, the Confederation of British Industry, CBI, in Northern Ireland, in facilitating the dialogue between business leaders in both jurisdictions.

Our focus continues to be on leveraging the mutual benefits of North-South economic interaction to promote strategic investment and the growth of employment and prosperity throughout the entire island. In the five decades since 1973, the joint work of the business communities has constructively informed and supported the development envisaged in strand two of the Good Friday Agreement to develop trade, critical transport and infrastructure, skills, supply chains, regulatory regimes and markets in order that both jurisdictions would fully benefit from the economies of scale and proximity. I think we will come back to the opportunity of scale quite often in the course of our conversations this afternoon.

The economic benefits of the Good Friday Agreement have been most evident for business in delivering a more stable place to invest; a more attractive place to live and work; growth of all-island trade and brands and, crucially, much more joined-up, all-island policy and planning. Certainty is the key ingredient for companies investing and the peace process gave more certainty for companies placing assets, infrastructure and teams in Ireland and Northern Ireland. Investment levels in Northern Ireland had declined substantially at the height of the Troubles and the stability brought about by peace has seen material recovery, even if not yet delivering on its full potential. In Ireland, the past two and a half decades have seen levels of investment by global companies in life sciences, technology and many other sectors that would have been unimaginable to previous generations.

Our members frequently tell us that senior corporate leaders in decision-making roles would not have approved many of those investments, if there was an ongoing risk of political violence on the island of Ireland. Peace has also made Ireland and Northern Ireland much more attractive locations in which to live and work. Outward migration was a blight on both economies for many decades, but the period since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement has seen this reversed, with growing populations helping to drive prosperity throughout the island. We see that the all-island economy is a hub for mobile and global talent, in a way that would not have been possible without the agreement.

The surge in cross-Border trade and business is, in many ways, the clearest evidence of the stronger supply chain and North-South economic and commercial interaction and linkages throughout the island. While the rapid increase in recorded trade volumes we have seen in recent years has been somewhat driven by Brexit-related data issues, the current goods trade level which now is approaching €10 billion - it is €9.5 billion on the latest run rate - is testament to the progress made in developing the all-island economy over many years. Investment in all-island infrastructure in areas such as energy, transport and tourism is further evidence of the benefits of peace and stability on the island. Business was especially active in advocating for the all-island electricity market and it is a striking example of investment and co-operation that would not have occurred without the Good Friday Agreement.

IBEC's campaign, for peace and prosperity, seeks to engage the business community both at home and internationally in order that it has both a stronger understanding of the importance of peace in developing the all-island economy and an opportunity to give voice to the many individual business stories which have fostered economic and prosperity progress on this island to date. IBEC is very much committed to working with business and wider stakeholders to ensure that the prosperity delivered in the all-island economy is recognised, secured and, crucially, built on throughout the island for the next 25 years and beyond.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Do Ms Gallagher or Mr. D'Arcy wish to add anything at this stage?

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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They can answer the questions.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Pardon?

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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They can answer the questions.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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No problem. I just wished to ask them whether they wanted to add anything. I know they wish to answer the questions. I meant that out of courtesy.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I am joking.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I wish to say something as a Border Deputy. I live in County Louth. The peace process has been of considerable benefit to my county and especially the adjoining county, County Down. If one compared Dundalk with Newry, pre-Good Friday Agreement and post-Good Friday Agreement, there would be a considerable difference. Unemployment was very high. There was very little investment. Reputational damage was done to all of the areas, because of the violence and the trouble, but they have been totally transformed by the Good Friday Agreement. Obviously, business has made a considerable difference and generated considerable growth.

This is not a political comment, but I hope IBEC's message and report gets through. Deputy Conway-Walsh was present at the launch, as I was. We must ensure all the business leaders in Northern Ireland are aware of the messages IBEC made at that event, namely, that it can work, it is working and it has huge potential.

My last point is the comparison in the benefit to all the areas, both on the island of Ireland and in the UK. In the last 25 years, London aside, the greatest growth and benefit to people has been on this island. It is a hugely important message and really telling.

Deputy Conway-Walsh may go ahead.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair and thank Mr. O'Brien, Ms Gallagher and Mr. D'Arcy for being here. We welcome the opportunity to discuss the report. I was delighted to be at the launch. It is really timely, significant and we can work with it here. I have gone through it several times and considered what it might mean for us. I thank IBEC for this progressive initiative. The importance of the report is it captures and measures some of the dividends of the Good Friday Agreement. We on this committee are acutely aware the agreement has only been partially implemented and full implementation would obviously mean even greater prosperity for everybody living on the island. Using these economic measurements we can project and plan all-island initiatives to enable future growth and prosperity and that is the real value in it. Mr. O'Brien talks about reenergising and evolving the operation of the agreement during its 25th anniversary and I could not agree more. The agreement is a living and breathing document that belongs to everybody on the island and must continually be used to improve the lives of everybody living on the island and indeed the Irish diaspora as well.

The report rightly points out the benefits of integration for "all island planning of projects to implement crucial policies - particularly for physical infrastructure in energy and transport on the island – avoiding duplication [which I agree with], better leveraging assets, reducing costs for consumers." The report also states, again rightly, that "In order to optimise the full potential of the all-island economy a new joined-up [North-South] policy framework should be put in place". I ask our guests to elaborate on that role and the specific actions the Government and parties need to take to establish that framework, because I too believe it is the way forward. I will ask my three questions and our guests can divide them between themselves.

Transport is also really important. The reopening of the western rail corridor is a long-term Sinn Féin policy, as our guests know. As well as meeting transport needs, we see it as a catalyst for sustainable growth and maximising the opportunities along the Atlantic economic corridor. How important do the IBEC representatives think it is to accelerate the delivery of the transport infrastructure while meeting our climate change targets? I note also the report also rightly states we need address the uneven levels of prosperity. As someone who comes from the west and has an interest in the western economic corridor, it is something that needs to be at the forefront of our minds as well.

On education and student mobility across the island, how important do our guests think that is? I ask in the context of hearings we are having at the education committee in a couple of weeks' time around opening up third-level opportunities across the island. The report refers to the "17,000 students [leaving the North] each year to study in Britain" and how only a third of those return home. This presents problems for the labour force in the North and for economic growth there. What do the IBEC representatives see as the economic benefits see as the economic benefits of facilitating and encouraging student mobility across the island and what the knock-on effects would be for labour force planning and indeed for meeting the challenges of the labour shortages across the island?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

I will start and ask Mr. D'Arcy to come in on some of these as well, especially how we envisage the future evolution of the framework. Given the comments from the Chair and the way the Deputy rightly positioned this, when it comes to the economic significance of the agreement, there are many factors due to the success of the Celtic tiger but the agreement has never got full recognition as one of these key factors that saw the unprecedented levels of prosperity over the last two decades, though with some interruptions, obviously. For the 25th anniversary, we see the role of business as being to tell this story of the economy and what it meant for investment, employment and all the other factors we mentioned.

I might work backwards through the Deputy's questions. On the educational piece, we were noticing before Covid something that has become much more evident since, namely, the degree to which the all-island labour market is now functioning as a single labour market. That is much more pronounced than in the past. We note in our report we now have a labour force on the island of 3.6 million, so it has got real scale. Whether an indigenous company or a global one is coming to establish operations in Europe or on this island, it is looking at the opportunity of the 3.6 million and the nature and diversity of skills it can get in that labour force. In this new world of work, distance from your employer does not matter. Having those skills on the island and having reasonable access through good public transport - which we will come to - is important. It has really opened up the all-island labour market. That is going to become much more of a phenomenon in terms of ensuring we have an all-Ireland labour market that works seamlessly in all its facets, that is, through an education system, through skilling and upskilling and then through the regulatory framework, especially around social welfare and tax. We have a lot of concerns that we are not doing enough to get the most and and the optimum out of that all-island labour market.

To the Deputy's specific point on education, where we have students choosing to pursue education outside or away from the island, there is less probability of them returning to bring those skills and that education back to the all-island economy. We definitely see that as a challenge. Then we can see that in both jurisdictions we have various pinch-points, blockages and shortages of capacity whereby students are, in many cases, almost being forced to leave the island to pursue their educational opportunities. This means there is less opportunity to bring those back into our workforce. That could be in heatlh, and I was recently listening to the story of veterinary students who are in such large numbers going to eastern Europe from Ireland.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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On that, it is an ongoing discussion here and we have expressions of interest. Does Mr. O'Brien think it is crucially important to have a veterinary school, wherever it is, that would cater for the needs of all the island, and not just those of this State? Then there would not need to be conversion courses and everything after that, because we get it right from the beginning.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

Our main observation on this is the opportunity again of the economies of scale. If there is a business case and an economy of scale on the island of Ireland that would seem to us like a very logical route to proceed, so we would definitely see the benefit of that. Again, we see it in the context of business engagement with the education sector and from both a recruitment and research perspective, they want to engage with centres of excellence and business will not take any kind of recognition of whether it is in Northern Ireland or in Ireland as it want to go where the excellence for its particular area.

They see considerable merit, however, in terms of working on the island for obvious reasons. Although the population number is growing, with an all-island population of 7 million, it is a relatively small island and where we can have shared centres of excellence across the island. Whether it is in the context of education or research, that makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the case that we should all-island proof all our policies and actions? When it comes to setting up a veterinary school or whatever else, Departments and others need to be considering that on the basis of whether that suits our all-island policy.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

Yes, as well reflecting on the fact that the labour market for those 3.6 million people has changed completely in the context of new ways of working and mobility within the labour market. We need to look at everything relating to the labour market, education and research and how we support labour and mobility across the island in a very different way from was done before Covid.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I am interested in moving on to the question on the framework, just in terms of elaborating on-----

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

I will take the question on transport and regional growth and then hand over to Mr. D’Arcy to discuss the framework. In the context of the prosperity dividend and the significance thereof, we made the point in several parts of the report that if one benchmarks the island of Ireland against all the regions across the United Kingdom, we are the second most prosperous region outside London. This is a very high-income and prosperous island but, within that, it is clear there is disparity. It is clear that Northern Ireland has not benefited as much as Ireland has in terms of that prosperity bounce, for all sorts of reasons. Equally, however, we have regional disparity concerns within Ireland as well. Some years ago, we set out an ambition that we would work towards the infrastructure and services for an all-island population of 10 million people. The housing commission recently observed that we in Ireland need to be planning for a mid-century population of approximately 7 million people, so that all -island population of 10 million is coming increasingly into focus. As we plan for that, we would like to see much more effective balanced regional development and a much greater sharing of that prosperity benefit and dividend across the island of Ireland. However, as we see the all-island economy flourish and that kind of integration improving and the movement in the labour market, the upside for Northern Ireland from here on will be as strong in terms of what we have been experiencing in Ireland. The difference in household income levels here compared with the average in the UK has become quite spectacular. That regional element is very significant, however, both for Northern Ireland and across Ireland. Transport is an element of that. We have very much been advocating for Atlantic transport corridors and having a proper all-island ring transport infrastructure to match that ambition of 10 million people.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. O’Brien.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

I will hand over to Mr. D’Arcy to discuss the framework.

Mr. Michael D'Arcy:

I thank the Deputy. I have been on this pitch for quite some time. One of the key differences is that in previous appearances before the committee I was talking about the possibility of economies of scale and proximity and conditions but now we can talk about that as a proven principle rather than having to promote it. As Mr. O’Brien mentioned, few people would have imagined the hard numbers, such as heading towards €10 billion in cross-Border trade. Even driving to Belfast is extraordinarily different now in terms of the volume of traffic along the way. As the Chairman is not in the committee room, we will not discuss County Louth. It used to be the case that there was a fall-off after Dundalk and it was very quiet until Newry, when it would pick up again until Belfast, but now it is busy all the way along the corridor. What we are building on here is the fact that businesses, individuals and communities are into this new phase of interaction with each other on the island. The key word there is "new" in the context of a joined-up North-South policy framework. Of course, the original joined-up framework is in strand 2 of the agreement. A significant amount of research and development work was done prior to the conclusion of the agreement. The formation of the Single Market and the ceasefire created possibilities for business and people to engage in more North-South interaction, with the stability of the institution, principles and processes that were provided. We are now in a position of strength. That is key.

Another point is that having come to deal with the reality of the UK now being out of the EU, we have the protocol and relative stability. One can see the confidence that has given business to underpin this new all-island model with investment, additional activity, growth and so on. It is about how policy can strengthen that movement and support it in a positive and progressive way.

I will quickly walk the committee through some of the key areas of the report. Energy has not been mentioned thus far. It is vital. It covers all three strands. The British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference in its communiqué last week referred to beginning work in this new energy space in respect of renewables and so on, which, of course, are entirely interconnected not just North-South but also east-west and between this island and the Continent. There is that triangularity of connectivity that is underpinned by regulation, as Mr. O'Brien stated, and there are the economies of scale and so on and all the opportunities of renewable energy.

The Deputy mentioned transport infrastructure. The key in that context was always return on investment and economy of scale in the context of an island of 7 million people rather than 2 million in the North and 5 million in the South. The North's 2 million population is an even smaller number from an investment perspective than the 5 million population here. Combining the two is a mutual benefit from a Northern Ireland perspective.

In terms of research and development, in an all-island context there is Science Foundation Ireland and the work of the universities. Academics are sharing knowledge and experience and developing in the unique conditions of the island. That is the case in the context of veterinary, as the Deputy stated, and in medicine, such as in the field of cardiology. This was identified in the 2013 report. It is about excellence. It makes more sense to have one centre of excellence for the island rather than having two such centres, especially in specialist areas.

We mentioned FDI, in which the Deputy has a particular interest. We now have the model of Tourism Ireland relating to the promotion of FDI. Internationally, companies seek to invest in the island as a whole. There are difficulties with agencies and so on but it is surely possible to work out a way of presenting that, particularly in the context of sectors like agrifood that are connected to the experience economy and tourism. We need a new narrative within which we can work to present to an international audience and to use the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement in that regard, particularly in the United States, where there is a sharp focus on how the US can continue to support the process at the political level. Being able to communicate that to the business community would be positive.

To tackle the hard nut, people often state that unionism will not engage but I know from my work with the Joint Business Council that businesses, irrespective of the personal convictions of their chief executives, will follow the money and the opportunity. It is important to have opportunities to connect with the business people on the ground who are doing the hard work to make their place more productive but are running into obstacles and difficulties. Anything that can be done to provide such support from this side of the Border is important.

I have been reappointed to the programme management committee. The PEACEPLUS programme is an important opportunity to build on what the shared island unit is doing. There is Science Foundation Ireland and so on. This sends a signal to those in the business community that the two states, the EU and the British Government are getting behind the work they are doing to make this investment and to grow their businesses. As Mr. O'Brien stated, it is important that this is done in a way that takes account of the all-island labour market and the current needs, particularly in the context of climate action. Members will be aware that I highlighted at the launch that the legislation in the North requires the authorities there to account of targets here but, as I understand it, the legislation here does not currently have a similar requirement. Where we are planning our own future, there should always be a North-South all-island ingredient in the mix. It will not always make sense. We cannot say that it makes sense in all areas. We have to evaluate on a case-by-case basis but it should always be an ingredient that is on the table when the policy is being put together and consideration is being given to how that should happen.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will have to stop Mr. D'Arcy there as we have exceeded the time considerably. We will come back to him on those issues.

Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. O'Brien, Ms Gallagher and Mr. D'Arcy. It is good to have them present. I commend them on their approach to the Good Friday Agreement. The business perspective is very important to have a joined-up approach on an all-island basis. It is fresh. The reality is business in this country and in particular in Northern Ireland has led politics. A lot of business people have been leaders in society and have led politics in recent decades.

I was interested in some of the points that were made. I have made arguments in the past while meeting various groups in Northern Ireland about the young people who leave Northern Ireland for an education who stay in the UK for a job and then for life. That brain drain is wrong and it must be rectified. This approach helps to rectify it. I made a point one day to a group in Belfast that our model is a good one. It was said to me that a reason a lot of young people go to the UK to study is because some of the top universities in the world are there. I accepted that might be the case but what Northern Ireland graduates get in their pocket for their week's work is less and they are much worse off than our graduates. I put that down mainly to research and development. Do the witnesses have any statistics on the comparison between graduates in Northern Ireland compared with those in the rest of the island?

I welcome what has been said about balanced regional development. That is very important. The witnesses are correct that there must be a joined-up approach on policy. The difficulty at the moment is that Stormont is shut down and there is no way forward. When there was talk about launching an all-Ireland rail strategy, I was very adamant that it would be done in conjunction with both Ministers. Nichola Mallon got involved with the Minister, but we now have no Minister for transport in Northern Ireland. It is a difficulty that we cannot launch the report on the all-island strategy. I am in favour of an all-Ireland approach, but the policy must work as well. It is difficult to work around it.

On my travels, I can see that mid-Ulster and counties like Tyrone have evolved the business market in the past 30, 40 or 50 years. Belfast was once the powerhouse but Tyrone is very nearly the powerhouse now. It was not a decision driven by policy. Do the witnesses have any insights into that? What do they believe are the reasons it has happened, given it was not necessarily driven by political policy? Tyrone now accounts for 40% of the export trade. I would welcome the views of the witnesses on that.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

I will comment on some of the questions and I might ask Ms Gallagher to come in on the conversation as well. She has been capturing stories on business leaders across the island. The economics in the report are important, but one of the things we want to achieve through this initiative is to bring to life some of the real-life stories the Senator mentions. We have been capturing that in different ways. I might ask Ms Gallagher to talk a little bit about that.

Senator Blaney raised some very important points about the opportunities that are now available for graduates and young people on the island. He mentioned research and development. IBEC, as part of a separate piece of work we are doing with the ESRI, is for the first time building a macroeconomic model for Northern Ireland and for the island of Ireland for the all-island economy. That we have not had a sufficiently robust macroeconomic model for Northern Ireland or the all-island economy has been a significant gap in policymaking and analysis. For the first time, that will allow us to model a range of policy options and scenarios.

I will talk a little bit about the area of innovation, research and development, and productivity, because when we look at the all-island economy, the biggest challenge we see, ultimately, is one of productivity for Northern Ireland. It is substantially behind the Irish economy. In the report, we point to the evolution of the business model here, which even in the past decade has been quite spectacular. Young people coming out of university very often have access to what we regard as best-in-class or world-class jobs here in Dublin or elsewhere in Ireland that would be on a par with roles in some sectors in London, for example. Many young people no longer have to travel to London or another recognised major global capital to get leading-edge roles. They are happening here. That has been the transformation.

We have a superb history of foreign direct investment but it has been a constant evolution. Even many of the international companies that came here 40 years ago for a manufacturing base in some cases have their global centres of excellence for research and development and innovation on the island. We are seeing this in analytics, across life sciences, medical technology, in the pharma sector and in the indigenous food sector. In some sectors, some of what is happening here is on a par with any place in the world, so graduates can get the very best roles. They do not need to leave the island. That is one of the things we point to in terms of the economic opportunities for Northern Ireland's school leavers: that there is an educational opportunity leading to an employment opportunity on the island of Ireland and that many of those roles are on a par with anything that could be achieved elsewhere in the United Kingdom, for example.

The second part of the question was on the delivery of an all-island infrastructure and rapid efficient rail. With modern ways of working, it is no longer a challenge to be based a couple of hundred miles from an employer's office. It is opening up a whole new swathe of opportunities. I emphasise that the business model we have now is completely different from what it was even ten years ago in terms of the quality of the roles. Research and development have become much more embedded and the productivity and performance is much higher. That is a key distinction with what we see across the Northern Ireland economy.

I might ask Ms Gallagher to comment on some of the stories we have heard from businesses themselves in terms of what the stability of the Belfast Agreement-Good Friday Agreement has meant.

Ms Nikki Gallagher:

I thank Senator Blaney and the committee. We are delighted to be here today to facilitate a conversation. That is what this campaign is all about: facilitating thoughtful, reflective conversation about prosperity on the island and the role business has played.

The report we have been talking about thus far is just one aspect of the campaign. Those members who have read it will be aware it also contains case studies. We felt it was very important to capture not just the facts, figures and economic impact, but the real stories behind the facts and figures. A number of case studies are contained within the report and we have created a micro site which captures more case studies. We will continue to build on them throughout the campaign. They are stories from IBEC members and some who are not IBEC members right across the island telling us how the peace process and peace dividend has had a massive impact on their business and why prosperity matters so much in the past, present and future. We would be very happy to keep the committee updated as we build up the stories.

The campaign will last six months and the report launch was kick off. We have a number of other events scheduled for the coming weeks. They are all telling stories as much as being about the economics. We have an event on 23 February to which many members have been invited. That is a peacemakers event with former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, and Alastair Campbell, who was adviser to Tony Blair at the time. We will have an International Women's Day event and events in Brussels and in Washington as well as more events in Dublin and throughout the country in the coming months.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

I will follow up with one comment on Senator Blaney's question about the changing geography of economic prosperity.

One of the things we have observed, again, over the past ten or 15 years, is that even the west coast of Ireland has become a real hotbed for manufacturing excellence. While certain sectors are very predominant in, for example, Dublin, there are other sectors where distance from market is not the limiting factor it was in the past. The capacity to be able to attract skills into these areas is much stronger than it was in the past. That is having quite a significant impact on where economic activity happens. It is now about the individuals and talent dictating where that activity happens rather than being in major population centres or traditional industrial bases. We see that dynamic around economic distribution evolving quite a lot.

Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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I mentioned County Tyrone because if we consider the past 50 years and see how the island has developed, for example, as regards motorways, the A5 was never touched, and rail was lost and is not part of the island. County Tyrone, however, has become this powerhouse. Most infrastructure west of the River Bann, from a Northern Ireland perspective, is very weak but County Tyrone stands out as a powerhouse in manufacturing. I was in Belfast a number of weeks ago. Whether it is a nationalist or unionist area, we see poverty and hopelessness because politics is not working and there is significant unemployment, but County Tyrone is working.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

There is success in respect of the all-island food brand and food industry. We see the integrated nature of dairy, for example, and the whiskey industry, which is very much an all-island phenomenon. In IBEC, some of our trade associations, particularly our Irish whiskey association, are all-island. We are seeing a rejuvenation of whiskey distilleries throughout the island.

Mr. Michael D'Arcy:

I will mention the history. The first motorway on the island was built in 1968. It went from Belfast into the area of south Tyrone. In effect, it connected the Belfast economy, which had always been the most vibrant, into south Tyrone. That area almost became an island. Eastern Northern Ireland, in particular, was dominated by older businesses. Larger firms, traditional foreign direct investment, FDI, etc., all went there. There were local engineering and family-run businesses in that area, with the old Ulster engineering tradition, because they had that connectivity as a consequence of the motorway in a way. When we talk about public transport, we forget the movement of goods also needs high-class roads and that kind of capacity, and that evolved.

One thing that is missing in respect of Northern Ireland is doing a proper, comparative study of its own regional development, within the totality of Northern Ireland, and how each of those different regions has fared over time. Newry is a significant example of a place within the North that has benefited enormously, along with Strabane, post the Good Friday Agreement, compared with where it was previously.

County Tyrone has always been an interesting stand-out, as the Deputy said. There has also been a certain amount of spillover into County Monaghan as regards the agrifood business that is less publicised by people from counties Monaghan and Cavan for some reason I do not quite understand.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I allowed this slot to run over by four minutes so we will do the same with all the slots, if that is okay with the committee.

IBEC's contributions the other day were very positive. It is heart-warming to hear the progress that has been made and the potential to grow the economy on an all-island basis even more. Mr. D'Arcy and I shared platforms in the North and South in days when the like of what we are talking about today could only be a pipe dream. It is great to know about the significance of the Good Friday Agreement and what it has brought about, not just in saving lives, which is obviously the most important thing, and in bringing peace to our island, but the knock-on economic and social benefits for all the people throughout the island.

Ms Gallagher mentioned the IBEC campaign. I welcome that and compliment it on its work. It facilitates a conversation that is very important, which is that we take stock of what has been achieved. We often talk about what has not been achieved. It is very important at times, when we review strategies, agreements, Government policy, State policies or whatever, that we review what has happened. We should posit and put that out there, and show what can be done.

Mr. D'Arcy mentioned the agrifood industry. That has grown so much on an all-Ireland basis. The company, Lakeland Dairies, made massive investment in the likes of Omagh, and throughout Northern Ireland, where both the raw and finished product travels north to south and south to north. This committee discussed, as I did on platforms with Mr. D'Arcy, and shared concerns regarding Brexit when it was being talked about, long before the decision was made by the British Government, in respect of how it could disrupt our method of farming, agrifood, food production and all of that. All those issues have not been resolved. We sincerely hope they will be.

Has IBEC much evidence from its members that Brexit put a stop or hold on investment decisions by companies? My constituency of Cavan-Monaghan and the neighbouring counties of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Armagh are very heavily dependent on the agrifood sector, construction products and engineering. The first market for any of those companies is Britain. Any disruption in trade between Britain and Ireland would significantly impact on the sectors our local economy is so dependent on. There are still concerns in the dairy and agrifood sectors with regard to how the protocol will work out. We sincerely hope that the level of inspections will be minimised very significantly and that, in reality, there will be no disruption to trade.

Has the worry of potential investors eased with regard to investment decisions, when we sincerely hope that progress is being achieved? There is now a British Government that seems intent on getting an agreement, along with the European Union which was always committed to getting an agreement. It was mentioned that the shared island initiative gives a new impetus to research and development. I presume the project that IBEC is involved in with the ESRI is one of the many shared island initiatives - others include the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, the ESRI and some of our universities - that studies and analyses policies on an all-Ireland basis, which is essential and a very positive move forward. Mr. Joe Kennedy, President Biden's new special envoy to Northern Ireland, has spoken about the investment opportunities and he also wants to bring that message.

I invite the representatives to make a quick comment on any of the issues I mentioned. The shared island initiative builds on the success of the Good Friday Agreement, which is very heartening. It is very important that the wider public hear the message we are giving that there are day-to-day jobs in our communities that would not be there were it not for the Good Friday Agreement.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

Absolutely. That is a recurring theme from so many of the stories Ms Gallagher has collected from business leaders.

The shared island work is incredibly important. We have engaged with much of it. For clarity, the ESRI study I mentioned on the macroeconomic model is something IBEC is funding directly. We are funding it independently of the shared island unit. The reason is we are hearing from our members that this issue is very important for business. We are very much collaborating with the work of the shared island unit but this initiative is being funded directly by our members because they see a significant gap in understanding how the all-island economy functions.

I will briefly address the question on Brexit uncertainty. There have definitely been phases over the seven years that have passed since the vote that Brexit uncertainty has had some impact on investment decisions. Right now, we are clearly in a position where the most significant concerns and fears have not come to pass. Business sees the protocol as preserving the Good Friday Agreement, delivering certainty on trade throughout the island and giving people confidence to invest. By and large, those industries that have seen opportunities have continued to invest, although probably going through various points of greater concern than others over the past seven years or so. It is very important, in terms of the ultimate outcome of the implementation of the protocol, that that certainty and stability is maintained.

Emer Currie (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate IBEC on an excellent report. I did not know how much we needed this report until I read it. Twenty-five years on, it is very valuable to have a reflection on the successes since the Good Friday Agreement.

It is my opinion that partition has been a disaster for this island, which many other people would share. However, we have clawed back good results over the last 25 years and stabilised the country. We have seen the tragic impact violence has had but we have seen the dividends of peace. We wish we were not in a position where we are talking about the dividends of peace as if had never happened, but that is the reality we will have to overcome no matter what happens in the future.

One of those things is obviously the impact on infrastructure and education and the differences in productivity North and South. An issue that comes up repeatedly for us is to do with the factors that influence that productivity, particularly with regard to the education system and differences in productivity and early school leavers and then the brain drain to the UK.

The witnesses are speaking to the converted about the all-island economy, which has become a buzz word. It is a very practical description of what it is but it has become a buzz word over the last few years. Kudos to the dairy and whiskey sectors in IBEC that have led the way around all-island supply chains. We identified 12 areas of co-operation in the Good Friday Agreement. I and others would have liked to have seen that evolve over the 25 years and we have not seen that. We have not seen new areas of co-operation added to those 12 areas. Of course, the collapse of the Assembly has not helped with regard to bodies such as Waterways Ireland, which have been significantly impacted by the cycle of crisis and collapse when it comes to the Assembly.

What are the barriers to the all-island economy as IBEC sees it now? If we get through the protocol, what are the barriers to really maximising the potential of the all-island economy? The witnesses touched on areas like energy, transport and research and development. Tax is a really important issue. The witnesses talked about the importance of a mobile workforce. When it comes to remote working, there are differences in the tax systems that need to be addressed. When I look at the shared island unit, I see that we are being proactive in that area to try to make up for some areas of lack of co-operation and advancement. However, we also have the opportunity 25 years on to perhaps look at those North-South bodies as part of strand 2. Would IBEC recommend that?

Mr. D'Arcy and Mr. O'Brien touched on the tools that might be used to help this, whether it is macroeconomic data or other projects and tools that would help us because we need the pillars to sustain the all-island economy. What are those pillars? We know the areas we want to work on but what are the pillars by which we can measure and drive that? What are the barriers?

I commend Ms Gallagher on the brilliant report and case studies. I presume that as the year goes on, if this is a year-long campaign, she will be talking more about the potential and opportunities. What can this committee do as part of looking at that? We are doing a report. We have been doing work on maximising North-South co-operation and Ms Gallagher's input into that will be really important.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

Would Ms Gallagher like to lead out?

Ms Nikki Gallagher:

I thank the Senator very much. As I said at the beginning, the purpose of this campaign is to facilitate a conversation but that does not mean IBEC has to be in the room for every conversation. We would really be keen that these conversations would happen organically through the committee and with members' colleagues and constituents. Members should take the opportunity and material we are creating and where the opportunities occur, continue those conversations. They should if they can use their social media platforms to share the narrative, case studies and reports we are bringing out. Of course, members are very welcome to engage with all of the IBEC events we have coming up. We will make sure everybody in this room, as well as the wider Oireachtas, is very much welcome and invited to these campaigns. Members should please get in touch. I am head of public affairs and I work very closely with Mr. O'Brien. We are very open to having conversations. We understand there is limited time today but we are very open to having conversations throughout the period, either within the walls of the committee room or outside. Members are very welcome to come to IBEC as well.

Emer Currie (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Gallagher.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

I will make some initial observations on the key barriers we see and then perhaps ask Mr. D'Arcy to join the conversation. The Senator probably touched on them on her contribution. I will go back to the labour market and the pace with which the world of work is changing. We definitely have regulatory barriers on the island of Ireland that do not support that kind of all-island labour market to be as dynamic as it can. There are some practical things that are absolutely within the power of Government in Dublin to address immediately.

In particular, we would look at those kinds of tax and social welfare systems to see how we can bring greater alignment. It is a complication for businesses that are trying to have a single team on the island of Ireland in terms of their workforce. It probably a factor of Brexit that we have seen more organisations restructure their operations to an all-island operation since Brexit. Clearly, with the regulatory regime we are going to have for the all-island economy, that makes sense and some companies have chosen to do that. It makes it then more difficult to manage their workforce across the island.

There is definitely more we can do to support businesses that have that all-island workforce and support that mobility of labour across the island. That feeds into some of the earlier conversations we were having around education and having various educational centres of excellence on the island of Ireland and high levels of co-operation, in particular within our third-level and fourth-level education systems and on a research basis. Some good initiatives are happening but it is something businesses would very much point out as an opportunity for further co-operation.

Infrastructure remains a challenge, absolutely. We speak about the single electricity market being a wonderful success of the Belfast Good Friday Agreement and we continuously highlight that. We now have a climate challenge that we will have to address on an all-island basis. It makes perfect sense that we would be addressing that on an all-island basis. There are so many sub-elements of environment and climate. A very tangible example at the moment would be the deposit refund scheme for recycling. Not having a unified system for deposit refund on the island of Ireland is going to cause many challenges for businesses that already have either all-island retail or distribution or wholesale structures in the drinks industry. It is a very tangible element.

The broader infrastructure in terms of energy communications, transport for people, road transport can clearly be much more effective to support those supply chains across the island. Again, however, we would identify that in addition to that restructuring we have seen in many companies since Brexit, reshoring is definitely a phenomenon in terms of companies looking at their global international supply chains and bringing more resilience into their supply chains. For many of them, shortening supply chain distances and securing suppliers on the island of Ireland has become very attractive. Supporting the practical issues of infrastructure is something all members would identify as a barrier.

Mr. D'Arcy might make some more observations.

Mr. Michael D'Arcy:

I certainly have a couple to add. I would also like to highlight the Good Friday Agreement explainer within the report, with which I helped. Reducing it to the small scale it is was quite a challenge. It is quite important, however, because as a general comment, I do not think there is sufficient understanding and awareness out there of the agreement and what it actually contains and means, both North and South, particularly what it says about being three-stranded and about reconciliation. The word "action" is used. All those things like guarantees, equality, etc., and all those principles that matter in our own society are very much reflected in the agreement. That is all that explainer was trying to bring out. Having that in an economic document is really important because it shows the connectivity of the two in a very tangible way, which is why I back up what Ms Gallagher said in terms of the value of members using it themselves both as an explanatory tool for the economic aspect and the extent of the agreement itself.

Picking up on the point about investment and the protocol, I cannot remember the exact wording, but Article 11 refers to protecting North-South co-operation. It lists a number of sectors, for example, energy and higher education, but almost no attention is given to data and what Article 11 means in practice in that regard. If this committee is working on how we can proceed, it must consider what protecting those conditions means in practice in what is a different environment. A new labour market environment, a new corporate tax environment and a new climate change and energy environment are touched on and built upon in Article 11.

Relationships have always been important in this context. As those of us around the table who were there at the time will recall, there were few relationships in 1998. The situation is much better now. Recent surveys by The Irish Timesand so on have highlighted that there is still much more work to be done.

North-South bodies were mentioned. Just thinking about that now, perhaps the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement is not to wait for a North-South body or regulatory authorities to meet. Perhaps there should instead be a requirement for all organisations with a remit that touches upon the island to meet their counterparts once per year to exchange views and observations and create a greater matrix of awareness, so to speak, so that people can pick up the phone if a problem arises. Politicians know how important personal relationships and contacts are in making things happen when necessary.

This is just my personal contribution to the committee's thinking on this matter. The committee has a part to play, given that it covers many agencies, organisations, etc. Rather than waiting for a formal political agreement, my suggestion might be helpful.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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To their credit, local authorities were the best leaders in that respect prior to the Good Friday Agreement.

Mr. Michael D'Arcy:

Correct.

John McGahon (Fine Gael)
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I will touch on a couple of matters. There is a concept where I come from in Dundalk of promoting the M1 corridor between Dublin and Belfast, which is the economic engine of the island of Ireland, given the large population and employment in the area. The concept is one of trying to promote the region for FDI. This can be done well. If we just try to promote Louth, Down, Armagh or part of Belfast, American companies will view them as small time and ask why they should go there. Instead, an entire region should be promoted. Being able to sell across the Border region, with markets stretching out from Dublin to Belfast, would be much more attractive when trying to sell an area for FDI. I would be keen to know the witnesses' views on this idea.

For a seventh year, the chambers of commerce of Newry and Dundalk have organised a cross-Border conference on Brexit. It will be held on 8 March and will be attended by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, and Mr. Chris Heaton-Harris. Some of the themes will be business supports, skills and people, and the all-island economy. It is a good example of how we are bringing businesses from both sides together to tease out some of these issues.

I wish to pick up on the point about climate change. I am Fine Gael's climate spokesperson in the Seanad. I was involved with the deposit return scheme, which was brilliant. The point was made about that scheme as well. What role could IBEC play in ensuring that we have more joined-up thinking North and South in our climate policies? I have just come from a debate in the Seanad on an oil reserves Bill that has to do with energy security. What more can IBEC do to ensure that both Governments on the island have climate change and energy security policies that are as joined up as possible?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

I will kick off with a few observations, after which colleagues might like to contribute.

The potential of the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor has long been recognised. I hope it will start to see momentum. Previously, FDI companies that were looking at locations for investment on the island would come to us or IDA Ireland and say that they wanted people with certain skills within a 30-minute or 60-minute commute. That was the lens through which they picked locations. It does not apply anymore, though. We can stretch the catchment area out much farther now. The skills offering will be crucial to the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor. It does not just offer the island's two largest cities, but also its two closest cities. It is often forgotten that Belfast is the closest city to Dublin. They can be the economic powerhouse. The corridor's promotion will be on the basis of talent and skills, though. It is not the case that corporates will not dictate that I am going to be in a certain geography because of Government supports or incentives and we will then try to build talent there. They will go to where the skills offering and talent are. If I were to identify an area in which we could get the full potential out of the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor, it would be skills, research and education ecosystem, developing that brand and strength in collaboration, and the combined offering. Something that we do not see enough of on the island is a combined offering to investors.

The Senator asked what we could do to highlight the potential opportunities for greater co-operation, be it on energy or climate, on an all-island basis. IBEC has been engaging with our counterparts in Northern Ireland, the CBI, for approximately five decades. We run an annual all-island economic conference. There is more that we could do with the business communities across the island on a joined-up basis to point out the areas of particular importance and priority and to engage with the political systems, North and South, on ensuring those priorities are fully understood. We will continue to endeavour to do so. IBEC is engaged as an organisation and some of our trade associations are now all-island in their structures and memberships, but co-operation with the business community through CBI in Northern Ireland at that conference is important for highlighting issues.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Claire Hanna, MP, of the SDLP was due to join us, but she may have been delayed, as she is not online. Dr. Stephen Farry, MP, of the Alliance Party was due to join us, but I believe he is attending a meeting at Westminster. He is not online. There is no representative of the Green Party online, so we will turn to Sinn Féin again.

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentation. Like colleagues, I commend the report. It is timely, useful and informative for this committee in particular. Many issues have been raised at this meeting in what has been a worthwhile and comprehensive discussion, which has been reflective of the ongoing, evolving and organic nature of these conversations.

I wish to discuss something that, although distinct from the Good Friday Agreement, complements it while being complemented by the agreement in turn. I am referring to the common travel area. I sit on committee A of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. Senator Currie chairs it. We are carrying out work on the common travel area post Brexit and the potential pitfalls, with a particular focus on the Nationality and Borders Act 2022 that was recently passed in Westminster. The witnesses will know that the Act will require non-Irish and non-British citizens travelling from the South to the North to apply for electronic travel waivers. This will have an impact on tourism as well as labour and student mobility. Has IBEC researched this issue? If IBEC has discussed the matter with its membership, what is its membership's view on the impact? I am thinking in particular about the Good Friday Agreement. At this meeting and in its report, IBEC referenced tourism and how to promote that internationally. It also discussed how to attract people to work in a tech company in Derry who wished to live in Donegal. I am not asking the witnesses to enter the realm of political commentary and I understand why the business community likes to step back from that, but given the acute economic, societal and political impact this could have, how could we encourage the business community and other key stakeholders to be aware of this issue and to engage and lobby on it? The common travel area is important for a range of reasons having to do with rights and our economy.

Does IBEC see any potential damage to that which would have a further impact in the context of the issues we are speaking about?

Mr. Michael D'Arcy:

The first research I did on the common travel area was in 2016. I drilled down into its original legislative base. Since then, I have been pointing out to people that it was originally a common exclusion zone that by accident became a common travel area. It goes back to the UK's Aliens Act of the early 20th century. The point Senator Ó Donnghaile made is that removing the commonality of being in the EU, even if we retain the common travel area as agreed in 1921 between these two islands, creates a new set of difficulties with regard to movement on this island, between these islands, and between these islands and elsewhere. In the United Kingdom, there are now only two categories. These are British citizens and international citizens. In the UK legislative sense Irish people have an awkward provision whereby they can be treated as British citizens. This goes back to the 1948 Act.

Senator Ó Donnghaile has raised a very interesting question. It is good that he is doing some research on it. In fairness to business, this is not something that it has focused on in any way to date because there are so many uncertainties about the post-Brexit scenario and so much uncertainty about legislative practice in Westminster and what shape this Act will ultimately take. It is important that the Government puts the case again, just as it did for the protocol, that there are unique circumstances. To what extent these unique circumstances will be reflected in legislation is a question the Government should put to the British Government in order to ensure that the movement of people in economic and personal contexts is not impacted by the introduction of an economic partnership agreement, and that any restriction on the movement of people across the Border for economic purposes should be limited.

This is not just confined to the economic partnership agreement. The other day, someone was telling me how a trip to Belfast had been organised for her child's class. Everyone was very excited about it but the trip had to be cancelled because in the class there were two Ukrainian children who did not have visas. The whole class could not travel. This highlights the complexity of it. We need to get over it. It is up to the system to pull together this data and present it in this way. It is a unique circumstance and it needs to be tackled with unique arrangements for this island. We have heard a great deal about unique arrangements for Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Let us have unique arrangements for this island when it comes to the movement of people in the context of the interface between the common travel area and the wider movement of European citizens and other citizens, be it for tourism, business, social or educational purposes. There is also the issue of recognition of qualifications so that people can move for work and do their work on either side of the Border and support the needs of all-island companies to have this joined-up integrated service base.

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. D'Arcy. That is useful. I appreciate that we are operating in the unknown on this. Senator Currie, Chair of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly's committee A, which deals with sovereign matters, led a delegation to London where we tried to get some clarity but it was not particularly forthcoming I must say. We know the one thing that businesses want is certainty. We hear this quite a lot about our own political dynamics. Mr. D'Arcy spoke about a lack of understanding of the Good Friday Agreement in the North and South. If he thinks it is bad here he would want to see it in the Home Office in Britain. It would frighten him.

I appreciate what Mr. D'Arcy has said and I take the Government at its word with regard to engaging the British Home Office on this issue. It is also important that the Government does not just hear it from these institutions. It should also hear it from other stakeholders, given everything that Mr. D'Arcy has said. We know the evolving and changing nature of the working world and how people work and the realities on this island. Whether it is tour operators from the US or Canada who want to organise a golf trip or a family heritage trip to Ireland, or business investors who know their workers can be based in Connemara but go to Derry to work, it is so important that businesses and stakeholders not aware of this issue become aware of it. The Government understands this issue. Along with the British Home Office and the British Government, it should hear the message loud and clear that this will be detrimental, for a range of reasons, throughout our economy and to the very real principles and spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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The outgoing chief executive of Tourism Ireland outlined the reality of what this new proposal would do. It would be good if this message comes from every sector of the economy.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank IBEC for its presentation. I note it said the investment we have seen in the country since the Good Friday Agreement and the relative peace is not yet delivering on its full potential. IBEC obviously sees more potential. What could the Government here do to expand on this potential? Has IBEC seen a huge increase in investment from the US or other global entities since Brexit, in the North and the Border region in particular? Is there something that could be done to attract more? I come from Cavan in the Border region. Cavan has so much more in common with Fermanagh than the other counties around it, including with regard to tourism and the lakes. So much more could be expanded. I agree with what Senator Ó Donnghaile said. Many people who live in my constituency and work in the North and vice versaare affected with regard to travel if they are non-EU citizens. It is having a drastic effect.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

Our observation is that investment levels in the economy of Ireland have been spectacular if we look at any metric. We could argue that GDP is the best metric for measuring what is happening in the economy. If we look at physical investment in industries, we have never had a period such as the past decade. It has been an absolute golden era in terms of the scale of investment coming in. It would not be uncommon for us to work with a business looking at a scale of multibillion euro or dollar investment in a single site. Investment has been happening at a level of sophistication and scale we have not seen before. This has been evolving over the past two and a half decades.

Our observation is probably that Northern Ireland's economy has not benefited to the same degree as the economy of Ireland. With regard to how to address this, several times in my remarks I touched on the fact that businesses are looking at drivers of investment in a very different way. Tax is nowhere near as significant as it was in the past. Traditional large urban centres are not as significant. It is all about the availability of labour. We are constantly in global business cycles. It very much looks like the downturn will not be as significant as has been feared. The number one issue for our members in terms of expansion and growth is talent availability. We know the housing constraint will be a significant factor in this.

Any region, whatever the coherence or catchment, that can present itself as a talent opportunity will prosper. This will also be the case if we can get coherence for a region on a cross-Border level. It goes back to skills strategies, regional skills strategies and regional skills and talent strategies on a cross-Border basis. It is about demonstrating that talent will be available for the companies, either indigenous or multinational, that want to grow in a particular region. This is where we see the main opportunity. Our earlier comments are very much a reflection of the fact that the investment dividend has not been equally shared throughout the island. There is no question that the scale of prosperity seen in Ireland has far outweighed the prosperity benefit, albeit very real and tangible, that has been experienced in Northern Ireland.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I acknowledge IBEC funding the macroeconomic model, which will be a game changer.

I also acknowledge the work being done by the ESRI. I cannot wait for the first lot of that work to come out because we will then be able to measure things properly and target things in a way that we have never done before. I appreciate the clarification because I did think that the work was being funded by the shared island unit. Notwithstanding that, there is plenty of room for everybody to get involved once we have the information and a model, which I think will serve all of us in a really good way. The Atlantic Technological University presents us with a really good opportunity to remedy regional disparity and create a link with the Magee Campus.

A bit like the Good Friday Agreement, implementation is key. Professor Monica McWilliams, I think, made the point a few weeks ago about us not having an implementation plan to make sure all of the elements are implemented. There is lots of good work being done, including by the people present. NESC has produced a comprehensive report which contains a lot of commonalities in terms of what needs to be done. The challenge for us all is how we implement that in a co-ordinated way and measure the outcomes, which will show any real success.

One of the important points that NESC made was that most administrations could place a greater focus on the interoperable statistical data and co-operation between the CSO and the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, NISRA, for sectors that are important when it comes to all-island co-operation or comparison, including environment, health and trade. How important is that?

Mr. Michael D'Arcy:

As the Deputy will know, status is extraordinarily difficult because Northern Ireland tends to be under the UK's standard national status. That is one of the reasons we hope that the macroeconomic modelling will give us a base to start in terms of Northern Ireland people being able to mobilise their data around their more local factors that are more compatible to ours in many instances rather than the rest of the UK.

Second, to pick up on an earlier point, we have not mentioned the national development plan and the national planning framework and their all-island dimension. The Government can play a huge role in that, particularly if they think about sitting it in the next 25 years of the agreement.

Third, dare we push the Atlantic corridor to where the Atlantic goes? Let us imagine an area that stretches from Coleraine to north of the Burren and west of the Shannon as one contiguous area. I like to stir people up and such an idea would stir up people's thinking. Again, if Government planning, organisation and provision of services began to think about, in 25 years, how would we mobilise ourselves around that?

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Is there anybody from the Labour Party online? No. I call the Independents starting with Deputy Wynne.

Violet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I thank everyone for attending. I also thank everyone for the great work done to compile the report and thus have this conversation. A lot of good questions have already been put to the delegation so I shall pick out the pieces of hugely positive information and list my main takeaways from our meeting and the report.

Like Deputy Conway-Walsh, I wish to state that I really look forward to the joint report by the ESRI and IBEC on the macroeconomic model. As has been mentioned, there is a major gap in policy-making and our guests hope to model a policy that will specifically address macroeconomic issues that may be experienced North and South. I am interested in that piece of work. Please give further information, if any, on the gap in policy that the delegation is concerned about in terms of 25 years after the Good Friday Agreement.

The points made about confidence and certainty are hugely relevant. Getting elected after Covid, I know that it was something that businesses contacted each and every Member about. I refer to the lack of certainty and confidence and how that had an impact on their forecasting and productivity at that point in time. I ask the delegation to highlight the positivity that can come from confidence and certainty, and what that really does for the business sector in general.

It has been mentioned that the distance from market is not so much of an issue any longer and that investors do not specifically target population centres. That is hugely positive as I am a Deputy for County Clare. Obviously, we have been trying to find ways of bringing about and highlighting the importance of regional balance for the whole island, and specifically in terms of the west of Ireland. I shall discuss this point because this aspect creates an opportunity for all businesses. We saw a time when a lot of work was being done remotely, both willingly and not so willingly as it was very difficult at times for some people. The pandemic created the space for remote working to be examined further, including how we can implement remote working and increase such opportunities for workers and employees. I do think that such an initiative would bring about even more progress in terms of cross-Border workers. During Covid cross-Border workers experienced a lot of difficulties. It was hugely important that the necessity to adopt a co-ordinated approach to tax and social welfare was discussed today.

Someone made a point about funding North-South projects such as PEACE+. For me, that is one of the major takeaways that I will take as a Clare constituent and being able to look at that work. The delegation was very specific around the new, when reference was made to the fact that these North-South projects need to be funded.

I was going to ask about barriers but the issue has been mentioned so I shall refer to the one piece of data that jumped out from all of this positive picture that has been painted. I refer to the 40% productivity gap between Ireland and Northern Ireland. I view that percentage as a disparity. Some areas like biopharma and tech sectors have had huge increases but the impact of market forces on Northern Ireland firms have created the gap. I ask the delegation to further comment on that point.

Finally, it felt really good to meet the delegation in person. I welcome Ms Gallagher talking about further engagements outside of this committee. I look forward to continuing to engage with the delegation on the report, its data, and specifically on the real-life stories and case studies. Is there any way that we could share such instances on social media or raise them in our constituencies? I ask because real-life experiences and the accompanying colourful language paints a picture for people.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien:

I thank the Deputy for her comments and support. I shall work backwards and my colleagues might add some colour and detail.

The productivity gap is very significant and real. There are two factors. One is the exceptional level of productivity that we have in the Irish economy. If people benchmark Ireland against any economy in Europe they will see that we are an outperformer because of what has happened over the past 40 years of investment and the constant evolution, which I have mentioned a few times, of that investment and the nature of what is happening. Recently I met representatives of a company in the west of Ireland, which is a very large employer, and I was struck by them saying to us that there was not a single person in their employment that was doing the same job as they were five years ago.

That is ultimately what productivity and innovation looks like on a tangible basis so the business model continues to change and there are new and better ways of doing things. Ireland is at the frontier. That is part of the explanation, and we know that Northern Ireland has a productivity challenge. So much of that goes back to investment. We are looking at decades of under-investment in all parts of the economy in Northern Ireland, and the challenges in the education system that have been well brought out by some of the work the ESRI, in particular, has done.

The Deputy's comments on remote working are significant and we will look back on this period in 20 or 30 years and see that the advent of remote working probably had a more significant impact on balanced regional development than many decades of other Government policies. It will probably be the single most effective dial turner in terms of opportunities and prosperity for the regions. If we are going to help the regions to grasp the full opportunity, we will go back to investment within the regions. Housing is also such a challenge in every part of the country. This is not a major city issue as the Deputy will be aware, but crucially then it is about is having a much more sophisticated and high-quality transport network. Part of that will still involve roads but a lot of it will involve public transport and supporting a low-carbon transition across the island. Remote working is great but we will still need to have people connected in person and physically to their workplace for fewer days and in a sustainable commuting pattern. The transport infrastructure and public transport is needed to support that so that is the significant build-on.

The ESRI work, interestingly, has been done jointly with its counterpart in London, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, NIESR, and they are able to draw on similar regional economic models that they did in Scotland and Wales for Northern Ireland and then subsequently for the all-island economy. The most significant gap we point to is that we have not been measuring and when we have not been measuring, we have no idea how to quantify the policy challenges or barriers. The first thing for us is to get the measurement in place and then start plugging some of the policy levers that could make a real difference. Maybe colleagues want to come in further on some of those issues.

Mr. Michael D'Arcy:

I have one clarification about PEACEPLUS, this time round there are designated areas, which are the six Northern Ireland Border counties but this time there is a greater emphasis on what is called the functional area so long as the benefit of the project flows back to the designated area. It is important that functional area is understood across the rest of the island, like in Clare, because I got the impression being involved in it that there was a feeling that it was only for the Border counties in the Republic. It is important that it is understood this time round that is not necessarily the case and, therefore, more organisations should at least look at it. It might not be that there is a direct benefit that can be seen for Clare, but there could be a benefit for Clare in having a connectivity through this with the other part of the island. That is perhaps a useful way of thinking about it and looking at it and at each of the strands and where it fits in because it does merge both the economic side and INTERREG and the PEACE relationship developing embedding of stability side that was always the PEACE programme, as such.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. D'Arcy. Is Deputy Wynne okay now?

Violet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I am okay now.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, nobody is online. Ms Claire Hannon, MP and Mr. Stephen Farry, MP have been detained at meetings in Westminster but they had wanted to participate. I sincerely thank everyone for their contributions. In particular, Ms Gallagher mentioned further engagement, as did Deputy Wynne. That would be useful both at the committee and in other fora. Hopefully, we will be able to attend the event on 23 February. I again compliment IBEC on this particular initiative and also on the strong, positive message they gave here. As has been said by other committee colleagues, there is potential to further grow the economy for the benefit of everybody throughout the island. Again I thank IBEC for their contribution, on behalf of the committee.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to make a proposal on the back of that, that when the first report of the macroeconomic model is published that the committee invites IBEC and the ESRI in for a joint session to discuss the results and findings of that. It would be very relevant.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I think so. The National Economic and Social Council, NESC, is doing research and some of the universities are doing research so it would be useful to have all of those together. Again, I offer a sincere thanks to IBEC and we look forward to further engagement.