Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I thank our guests for attending. I wish to make a comment rather than ask a question. What Mr. Keane is talking about is reform and that is what we are fighting for every day of the week. The entire system needs to be reformed. We are continually arguing about the need for reform, particularly in the Seanad. We are not allowed to accept some very good legislation or amendments to Bills brought forward by the Opposition because we are governed by the Whip. The entire system requires an overhaul.

Mr. Keane is correct in the context of the need for joined-up thinking. Last November, the Revenue Commissioners contacted people in order to discover the means by which they intended to pay the local property tax for this year. I know a number of individuals who indicated that they intended to pay it out of their widow's pension. That was grand, and when they went online, their request to pay in this way was accepted.

All was well until last week when some of these widows got letters indicating that the Revenue could not take the money out of the widow's pension because the Department of Social Protection did not allow it. This has occurred after they had all indicated that they intended to pay the tax in this way. It is crazy that this was not done beforehand. The reason the Department has given is ludicrous. It stated that if a widow pays X amount a week towards the local property tax - €4 a week or whatever - it would take her income below the threshold for the tax. It is saying that one needs to pay one's local property tax but not on its watch - one must pay it somewhere else. If the Department is determining that the widow cannot pay it because it would bring her payment below the threshold, how does it expect her to pay it? We need joined-up thinking across Departments.

Ms Louise Bayliss spoke at length about child benefit and I agree with what she said. She should not think for one minute that this issue has not been thrashed out. We have had spent days thrashing out the different ways we should approach this issue. We have groups lobby us to means-test child benefit; others have lobbied us to tax it and others still have lobbied us to have vouchers for the children going to school. There are varied opinions on how to tackle this issue. If we were to means-test it, we would probably lose more than we would gain. How would we means-test all the recipients throughout Ireland at this stage? Perhaps it could be done with new applicants when they fill in the form. How can we go about means-testing what is being paid out in child benefit? I thought there was merit in the idea of giving vouchers to the parents which would be used in the schools to cover the cost of school books and school lunches and in that the funding would be used for the child. People say it is a universal payment for children and it should not be taken away. With child benefit, it is a case of "damned if you do and damned if you don't".

The child dependant allowance has been a bugbear of mine because it is paid alongside all benefit payments. A recipient of a short-term payment will not get the allowance if the child is over the age of 18 and going to school or college. If one gets sick, it is as if one's children do not matter in that one will not receive payment in respect of the child over the age of 18 but will only get payment in respect of those children who are under age, so to speak. If one is dependent on social welfare and has a child going to college, one will get a top-up payment for that child, the special rate of third level grant, which is great, but if that child came from Kerry and moved to Dublin, that payment would not even cover their accommodation costs. One has to then supplement one's child in college out of one's social welfare payments. It is crazy. Not everyone passes their exams the first time around and they may have to repeat a year, but if a child has to do that, he or she will not get the grant. It is very hard on parents who are totally dependent on social welfare to put their children through college. Are we going to return to the days when it was only the rich who would go to college? This is where equality comes into play.

I agree that we should have equality budgeting. We have tried to get budgets, particularly the social welfare budget, in advance in order that we could scrutinise them, but unfortunately that does not happen. It does not come to us beforehand. The Minister will come and tell us how much she has to take out of the budget, but we do not get the specifics until the day it is announced. When one is working with the people on the ground, one knows the specifics of the budget that will hurt people and what will not and what is acceptable, but unfortunately we do not get the specifics of the budget until the day it is introduced and then we debate it afterwards. It would be good if we could have the budgets in advance but we have not come around to that idea yet in this country.