Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming in today. I call Senator Ruane.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I want to raise the issue of the planned introduction of a flat fee for criminal legal aid.I note similar flat fees have been introduced in other areas of law such as family law and they have been heavily criticised. What particularly concerns me in relation to these proposals is a flat fee of €455 regardless of the number of appearances before the court. This is not so much in relation to a debate or conversation about how much legal representatives should or should not earn, but access to justice for some of the most vulnerable people who may end up in front of the courts. When these proposals came in, one of the assessments made in relation to 350,000 cases in the District Court from 2022 to 2023 found that the average number of appearances in criminal legal aid, CLA, cases is 5.04 compared with 3.24 for non-criminal aid cases. Comparing criminal aid cases to more simplistic, straightforward cases is not a good mechanism or measurement for how we ensure people have good, solid access to justice.

A principle I believe in, as do the Department and many other justice bodies, is prison as a last resort. If we have prison as a last resort, especially when it comes to criminal legal aid cases, what we are doing is creating a scenario where there is an expectation to have matters dealt with more quickly to match non-criminal aid cases. As the Minister of State can imagine, some of those cases are not going to cut having three or four appearances in court such as, for instance, people experiencing addiction, language barriers, people with severe mental health issues or intellectual disabilities or whatever the complexity of the case and the need may be. To give some reality to that, in one particular case among the cases I have looked at, there were eight appearances before the court. That may have included a probation report. The person may appear again when the probation report is not ready and the case is then adjourned again and again. In some cases it might be said that solicitors are delaying cases but many of these cases are found to be State-led in terms of delays.

Another case I looked at was from 24 April 2025. The number of adjournments between that date and 6 November 2025 was 21. Can the Minister of State imagine that a solicitor receiving €455 for a total of 20-odd cases is going to be able to provide adequate support to that individual who has severe mental health and psychiatric issues? At one point in the case he was unable to plead due to his unwellness. These things obviously tick on and on. Can the Minister of State imagine a solicitor being faced with a case like this, which has complexities, whether poverty or trauma or whatever it may be, and in this scenario telling him or her that €455 is the fee? That is not even the out-of-court aspect and it has nothing to do with prison visits that may be needed to build the case and adequately support the individual.

This is of real concern to some of the most vulnerable people who may end up before the courts. Whatever about the access to justice they may receive, we may also see, as we have in other areas of law, people leaving the legal aid system and saying it is not feasible for them to be able to work within it. What we are doing is creating a shrinking pool of access to justice for some of the most vulnerable people in the country. We cannot really say we have a system built on fair access to justice and legal aid if we are saying there could be a case with more than 20 adjournments in which we expect a solicitor to work for €455 and treat that person with the detail and care he or she needs across those adjournments.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. It is important to remember that the programme for Government contains three commitments in relation to criminal legal aid, namely, to reform the operation of the criminal legal aid scheme; restore the fees, and enact the criminal justice (legal aid) Bill. It is the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan’s intention to fulfil all three commitments. The Minister fully recognises the crucial role played by the legal profession in the effective administration of criminal justice. Equally, the criminal legal aid scheme is fundamental to upholding the constitutional human right to a legal defence.The Minister's only objective in making these reforms is to make the system more effective and efficient while ensuring that those accused of crimes, including those who are vulnerable or disadvantaged, are provided with the legal representation to which they are constitutionally entitled.

The reform of the criminal legal aid fee structure in the District Court will not affect the ability of legal professionals to engage in criminal legal aid work. Neither is it intended to reduce the cost to the State of providing criminal legal aid. Rather, it will improve efficiencies, reduce unnecessary adjournments, simplify the administration of criminal legal aid, speed up case resolution and enable faster payments to practitioners. For cases in the District Court, regardless of the number of appearances, a set fee will be payable to solicitors. The new structure will also provide for a full separate set fee for each defendant in court on a given day. This reform will be a major improvement on the current fee structure.

In considering the need for reform, it is important to note that while criminal case volumes in the District Court have decreased, expenditure on criminal legal aid in the District Court has nearly doubled, from €19 million in 2015 to €37 million in 2024. The Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration reviewed more than 350,000 District Court cases which took place during 2022 and 2023. The reforms aim to address structural issues identified during this review, such as unnecessary adjournments resulting from the payment-per-appearance model, which also impact those who are vulnerable or disadvantaged.

The Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration has been engaging extensively with relevant stakeholders, including An Garda Síochána, the Probation Service and the Courts Service, as well as legal professionals and their representative bodies, on the review and proposed changes to the scheme. Officials from the Department met with the Bar Council and the Law Society in May, July and October 2025 and again in March 2026. The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, has written to those two bodies recently offering to meet with them to discuss the proposals.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I know from reading the submission made by the Law Society that it also asserts this is a flawed proposal. When we think of efficiency, I am sure there are plenty of unnecessary adjournments in some cases, but in many there are not. As a community worker, I always try to portray to people whom we go to for funding that you cannot measure human interaction in efficiency or number of outcomes, number of adjournments or number of cases. It is a matter of how you work with individuals on a day-to-day basis, especially when we look at the courts system. In Ireland we say we have a rehabilitative system, whereby we might look at young people and vulnerable adults and often try to create other pathways for them out of the criminal justice system. However, you could be saying, "We need unnecessary adjournments", but your solicitor could be saying, "We need some adjournments because we have just got this person to register with their local youth centre and they are going to start a course in a community college." However, now you have only a flat fee and all of a sudden you cannot put in all those structures to make sure that person exits the criminal justice system and has what they need.

Finally, can the Minister of State say if any engagement took place with the District Court judges, who administer the system day in and day out, before the Department came up with these proposals?

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I will convey the Senator's remarks on this to the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan. As mentioned, the reform of the criminal legal aid fee structure in the District Court is aimed primarily at improving efficiencies, speeding up case resolution and reducing unnecessary adjournments, while ensuring that those accused of crimes, including those who are vulnerable or disadvantaged, are provided with the legal representation to which they are constitutionally entitled. The proposed reform is intended to make the system work better for all concerned. The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, looks forward to continuing engagement with the relevant stakeholders and representatives of the legal profession in advance of the introduction of new arrangements, including the full restoration of fees, which is due on 1 July.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the visitors and guests of Deputy James O'Connor. You are very welcome. I hope you are being well looked after in the Dáil restaurant and the bar.