Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry for the delayed start. It is a great honour to welcome our colleagues from the European Parliament, Members of the European Parliament. I will announce them in alphabetical order. That is the way the seats have been allocated to make sure it is impartial. We are delighted they are here. We are joined by Ms Kathleen Funchion, MEP; Mr. Billy Kelleher, MEP; Mr. Seán Kelly, MEP; Mr. Michael McNamara, MEP and Ms Cynthia Ní Mhurchú, MEP, who are representing us in Europe, working together as a team. As the embodiment of that institution and our representatives there, it is very welcome, in this year of Ireland's forthcoming Presidency of the European Union, that they participate in this engagement with the Seanad.

Standing Order 63(1) provides for Members of the European Parliament to be attendant and to be heard here with the approval of the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight. I am delighted that so many Senators are here. We asked the Senators who are from the Ireland South constituency, similarly with Dublin and Midlands North West, to attend on the occasion of their MEPs being here. It is important. It is about strengthening the understanding within the Seanad and within Ireland generally about the work that our MEPs do in Brussels and Strasbourg. It is very complicated but very important in terms of agriculture, artificial intelligence, the issues around economic resilience, peace and security and also democratic values.

We had a meeting yesterday of the Seanad Select Committee on EU Scrutiny and Transparency. Unfortunately, we did not get any one of the statutory instruments that we had sought. We hope to make sure that people understand the importance of the legislation that comes from Europe. When that legislation was coming from Europe in 1974 it accounted for 20 pieces of legislation. It is now over 200, so nearly four out of five of the laws that are enacted in Ireland in that process in our parliamentary system every year are European-led. The people of Ireland are entitled to see the drafts before they are signed into law and our legislators are entitled to see them in advance.

This co-operation between the Seanad and our MEPs is greatly valued. I will outline how we will run this session. Some of the MEPs have been here before. Each MEP will address the Chamber for six minutes. There will be contributions - and I mean questions; it is about questions - by the spokespersons in each group, and then a response not exceeding three minutes from the MEPs. We will then have questions from Senators. There will then be final contributions. It is all very short, at two hours, but it is valued that the MEPs are here. I will, in alphabetical order, call on Ms Kathleen Funchion, MEP. You are most welcome.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

I thank the Cathaoirleach. This is a really good idea. Ever since being elected to the European Parliament and in the run-up to that campaign, one of the things that I noticed was that sometimes people feel left out and a bit excluded. They may not fully understand what happens in Europe and feel disconnected from it. However, as the Cathaoirleach said, a huge amount of our legislation originates there. It is really important that there is a connection between the work we are doing, the work done in the Dáil and in the Seanad, and I would say the work the local authorities do as well. It is good to have this opportunity. We obviously have a very exciting time coming up too in relation to the Irish Presidency.

I will speak a little about the committees I am on and a little bit about things that I would like to see potentially happening during the Irish Presidency. I will be happy to do my best to answer questions; that is probably the best way of putting it.I am on a number of committees such as the committee on regional development, REGI; the committee on employment rights, EMPL; and then the FEMM committee around gender equality and women's rights. It is important. We see a changing world and a changing environment and solidarity and cohesion between communities and countries is more important than ever before. We have the Presidency, as has been said and we have a good opportunity to make our mark. It is a six-month window. I would like to see an emphasis on Irish unity. It is a good opportunity for us. We often talk about the Good Friday Agreement and the potential opportunity for border polls and referendums but we need to plan for all of that. None of that is going to happen overnight or without a plan and we need to bring everybody with us on that process. I regularly talk about the fact that I would like to see a citizens' assembly but we should be looking to use the EU Presidency to highlight that situation, to highlight the benefits of a united Ireland and of bringing everybody on that journey.

We also need to look at what I see, unfortunately, as the increased militarisation of the EU. It seems to be creeping into everything we are working on and every report we speak about. I mentioned some of the committees I am on. For example, we are working on a report regarding carers, that is, people who work in the paid carer industry but also people who are unpaid carers in the home and we are working on a report in relation to the gender pension gap. We see at times some groupings trying to put reference to defence and militarisation into these reports, which is something that would not have been seen in the past. As a neutral country, it is important that we are really strong on this. We have a unique position in the world and it is really important that the funds and the really good programmes we have coming from Europe are held and are not potentially sold out to any kind of militarisation situation.

The EMPL committee is one I mentioned. One of the examples I gave throughout the campaign when I was running for Europe as someone who worked in the trade union movement previously was that we got a huge amount of our really good, strong workers' rights legislation from Europe, particularly around gender equality. I always use those examples. For now, the EMPL committee is holding strong on a lot of that but there is the danger when we see other influences with a different agenda that the workers' rights agenda might be eroded. It is important that we are really strong on this and we continue to campaign on all of those matters. I acknowledge that there need to be supports for small and medium businesses and the huge pressure on these as well.

Cynthia Ní Mhurchú will be glad to hear I also want to mention the Irish language. I am not a Gaeilgeoir by nature but I have been making a bit of an effort in trying to use our language. I have given myself the task of having at least one speech per month as Gaeilge in Strasbourg. Unlike the institutions here, they are very strict on the one to one-and-a-half minute speeches.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We are strict here.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

You would never get an opportunity of six minutes. It is nearly unheard of nearly. For someone who might want to use the language but who does not always have the confidence to use it, this is a really good opportunity to encourage and use our language. Regarding the technicalities of that, we would like to see during the Presidency the end to the technical derogation on Irish interpretation that is currently in place, as it limits the rights of Irish speakers in the EU. Obviously, at Parliament level the translation is available but it is sometimes not available at committee level.

The Presidency will also play a key role in delivering the next EU budget. We need to be looking at our young people in relation to this. Youth unemployment is a major issue in Ireland. It is something that is actually being discussed at the moment in the EMPL committee. We have to look at opportunities because an unusual situation is developing where a lot of young people are being limited to part-time work whereas a lot of graduates are coming out very qualified and may not be getting the opportunity. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place where they do not have the experience but how can they get the experience if nobody gives them the opportunity?

Am I coming up on the six minutes?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Sin a bhfuil. I will give a light bell at one minute to go.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

There I was bragging about the one-minute-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There will be a chance to come back in.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

I am happy to finish for now and come back in on some of it if that is okay.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Anois - I was going to say "An Seanadóir" but it is a long time since he was a Seanadóir.

Mr. Billy Kelleher:

Fadó, fadó, nuair a bhíos óg.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na Seanadóirí agus na feisirí Eorpacha. Is mór an ónóir dom a bheith thar n-ais arís sa seomra álainn seo sa Teach an-tábhachtach. Before I begin, I put on record my deep sorrow at the passing of Brian Crowley. I can distinctly remember him sitting over there in the Chamber. We were both appointed to the Seanad in January 1993 by former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds. Brian was a great European, a loyal friend and a proud Cork man. I know he and the Cathaoirleach were great friends and his loss will be felt by many near and far, and obviously by his family in Bandon. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dilís.

Europe is at a crossroads. It is a phrase that is often used by politicians across Europe. Sometimes it is hyperbole but sometimes it is also a fact. In 2026, it is a fact that we in Ireland, a country that has gained more than most from the European Union, cannot ignore any more. We are at a crossroads. The last time I addressed Seanad Éireann was on 23 February 2022 and it was one day before Russia launched its war of aggression against Ukraine. Four years have now passed and Ukraine is still fighting for its independence, a testament to the incredible resolve of the Ukrainian people and the near unanimous support from EU political leadership. Despite everything, they keep fighting for their freedom and for the common values they share with the EU. Make no mistake that Ukraine is at the front line of Putin's campaign against everything the EU stands for, namely, democracy, rule of law, independent media, independent Judiciary, equality and the respect for international law. To those in Ireland who remain ambivalent about the outcome of this war, I say history will judge how we have responded on this issue. Ireland is militarily neutral but being militarily neutral does not mean we can be ambivalent or morally neutral. It does not mean we cannot distinguish between aggressor and victim.

Ukraine's resistance has exposed a number of fundamental challenges facing the EU. What must Ireland do to address these issues? First, I mention resources, funding and finance and how we make decisions in the European Union. These are two significant challenges for the years ahead. Putin has very little to show for fours year of aggression except unprecedented EU unity, NATO's expansion to Finland and Sweden, and the fast-tracking of Ukrainian membership to the European Union. However, maintaining that unity requires something we have been reluctant to discuss honestly and that is the whole issue of money and finance. The EU budget is only about 60% larger than Ireland's for a population that is 90 times that of the Republic. Therefore, we have a significant shortfall. Everyone wants the EU to do more but we can only split a pie of €190 billion so many ways before we are dishing out crumbs. Ireland is now a net contributor, which means our economy is strong and that EU membership works. Ireland has gone from being the poor man of Europe to one of its wealthy members in less than two generations. The challenge is that the future CAP proposal is effectively a cut when inflation is accounted for, yet, eastern flank member states increasingly prioritise defence and security funding over agriculture and many of the other EU programmes. The only way to square the circle is to increase the overall budget. Do we increase member states' contribution to the European Union or do we allow the EU to raise its own money through what we call "own resources"? Historically, Ireland has opposed both. We fear that the current own resources proposals, the digital tax, the financial transaction tax or a new EU corporation tax will disproportionately affect us. Yet, we have also been slow to support increased national contributions and this is neither sustainable, fair or probably even honest. If we do not like the current options, we must propose alternatives. Ireland must lead, not merely participate. We have benefited hugely from EU membership and continually support enlargement. It is time now for us to put our money where our mouth is in the context of EU funding.

As we enlarge, decision-making will come under significant pressure. Hungarian, Slovak and Polish prime ministers have previously held the gun to our collective heads on foreign affairs debates and decisions, abusing the threat of a veto on one issue to secure leverage on another. The threatened use of the veto is dangerous for us all and it undermines that concept of collegiality and solidarity among member states. Moving to qualified majority on more issues is the right move and Ireland should not be afraid to go that direction.It will require us to be more open about our priorities and build alliances with like-minded member states. We can strengthen qualified majority voting and thresholds to protect smaller states. On key issues, however, we cannot allow one or two countries to block efficient and correct decision-making processes. Our citizens want the EU to deliver. They will not accept a laissez-faireapproach to making decisions on the basis of outdated constitutional provisions.

The final challenge is one in respect of which Ireland has a unique role, namely navigating the turbulence in the EU-US relationship. We have all witnessed the recent volatility emanating from Washington, the trade disputes, the threats to member states' sovereignty and the pronouncements that undermine decades of transatlantic partnership. Last year, the White House national security strategy included a particularly concerning objective, namely "Cultivating resistance to Europe’s current trajectory within European nations". That is a direct quote from the national security strategy published by President Trump. This is a direct threat to interfere with member states and to support actors intent on undermining our Union. We have already seen allies of President Trump openly supporting the AfD in Germany, courting Viktor Orbán and amplifying nationalist parties across the Continent. I have more to say, but I will elucidate that in the context of the question-and-answer session.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I would not doubt Mr. Kelleher. Anois Seán Kelly, who presented me with the Cahill Cup in Fitzgerald Stadium in 1996. It was not exactly the Munster Final, but for me it was as close as I will ever get.

Mr. Seán Kelly:

Agus é tuillte go maith agat. Gabhaim míle buíochas le Seanadóirí, leis an gCathaoirleach agus le comhfheisirí as ucht an cuireadh labhairt leo. Nuair a bheidh ár n-óráidí thart, beidh díospóireacht againn le chéile. Is maith an rud é go bhfuilimid le chéile inniu.

Ireland's place at the heart of united and ambitious Europe has never been more important. Our support for the EU and our place in it is consistently high, but we cannot take this for granted. History has shown how quickly things can change. I call on everyone here to do what they can to continue to promoting the benefits of EU membership and reminding people how important these are for Ireland's economy.

In general, our approach to Europe is positive. Ireland should have the confidence in 2026, as one of the few net contributors to the EU budget and as a member state since 1973, to assert itself and shape EU politics. We often claim to be a country that punches well above its weight at EU level. I am not convinced that this is backed up by hard evidence. I see other small countries operating at European level in an extremely organised way and co-ordinating very effectively with their industry representatives to push national priorities effectively and coherently across various fora. We also see other small countries being far better represented across senior roles in EU institutions than we are. They are far more effective at getting their people into the much-coveted roles in Commissioner's cabinets than we have been recently. Where is the next Catherine Day or the next David O'Sullivan?

Our position in Europe and the perception of Ireland remain positive, but recent experience suggests that we need to work hard at both. Part of this involves ensuring that the public receives factual and accurate updates on discussions at EU level and calling out misinformation and populism when we see them, regardless of who is responsible. Let us take the recent discussions on Mercosur. We have heard all sorts of claims by commentators, farm groups and elected representatives about the Mercosur deal and the impact it will have on our beef sector. Farmers are perfectly entitled to voice concern about the potential market impact of gradually lowering the tariff on 99,000 tonnes of beef, which is 1.5% of total production or a small burger per person in Europe. However, I am deeply unhappy about how this debate has continued to centre around the extremely misleading claim that we will be supposedly flooded with untested and unsafe beef that is pumped with hormones. Let us be very clear. All products entering the EU Single Market must meet the same food standards that the EU applies in respect of domestic production. This is already the case for the 200,000 tonnes of beef that the EU imports from Mercosur countries today. There are checks at entry points and certification and inspection of exporters. The trade deal does not lower these standards in any way. In fact, it provides far more checks on goods than exist currently.

The issue with Mercosur and beef is purely price and market share. The relevant stakeholders should be honest about this. Will Mercosur cause a surge in imports that will severely impact beef prices for Irish farmers? Most unlikely. Independent analysis says that it will not. If you look at CETA, the result was the exact opposite. Regardless, just last week in Strasbourg, we finalised the safeguard regulation which means that a 5% drop in the price of beef would lead to a suspension of the application of the relevant provisions in the agreement. We sometimes look at what went on a decade ago in Britain and assume that Ireland is immune from the sort of populism and misinformation we saw during the Brexit referendum campaign. This is a very dangerous assumption. To be perfectly honest, some of what I have heard from certain stakeholders on the Mercosur deal would not be out of place written on the side of a red double-decker bus driven by Nigel Farage. The consequences of Ireland becoming a Hungary or even a France at Council level when it comes to trade discussions would be dark, ironically so for a country that is as dependent on an open global trading environment as we are.

We need to pay attention to the possible reputational damage that our position on Mercosur could bring at EU level. Senators will have read the comments of EU Commissioner Cristophe Hansen, a good man, in the Business Post a couple of weeks ago. He considers our stance on the agreement to be incoherent, not least in light of the enthusiasm with which we welcomed the conclusion of the EU-India agreement just a few days later and the nitrates derogation before Christmas. This also reflects the feedback I have received from colleagues within the European People's Party, EPP, group within the European Parliament. That Ireland, which, historically, is perhaps the most pro-trade member of the European Union, would oppose the opportunity to enhance our trading opportunities with a market of almost 300 million people at a time when our biggest trading partner, the United States, attempts to tear down the global trading environment as we know it and put a regime of protectionist tariffs in place, is frankly baffling to them, as are China's state-subsidised exports to the European Union, which are undermining all our industries. European politics is all about alliances and being a reliable partner with like-minded member states and MEPs. I fear we have really put this to the test in recent months. We need to correct it. The Presidency gives us an opportunity to do that, hopefully we can. Go raibh maith agat, a Uachtaráin - a chaptaein.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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A chaptaein - that was the Kenmare B football team, the Cahill Cup and Seán was the chairman of the county board at the time. It was a lifetime ago now.

Mr. Michael McNamara:

I wish to discuss with Senators a couple of files that will be particularly important to Ireland and during the Irish Presidency. The first one is the AI omnibus. The original AI Act was a genuine achievement passed in 2024, a landmark attempt to govern artificial intelligence in a way that protects fundamental rights, ensures legal certainty and supports responsible innovation. The omnibus is the Commission's proposal to amend it before it is even fully in force. This requires careful scrutiny. I should say that it is anticipated that this omnibus will be complete in the first half of this year. If there is any delay at all, however, it will fall to the Irish Presidency to conclude that omnibus, which, because it delays part of the implementation of part of the Act, which comes into force on 2 August, has to be concluded at the latest at the beginning of July.

The European Parliament has a responsibility to ensure that any amendments to the AI Act reflect the public interest as opposed to just the preferences of those with the deepest pockets and the most persistent lobbyists at their disposal. Where the Commission's proposal aligns with what industry has been seeking, that alignment requires explanation and justification. Simplification that genuinely reduces burdens on SMEs and improves legal certainty and clarity is welcome. Simplification that removes safeguards that citizens fought hard to secure is something quite different, and the Parliament must scrutinise that.

There is one addition which I, as a rapporteur on the file, am determined to secure. Senators will be aware of the controversy that erupted at the start of this year around the AI tool Grok being used to digitally undress images of women and children and share them online. This caused revulsion, and rightly so.The AI Act, as it stands, does not explicitly prohibit the non-consensual generation or manipulation of intimate images, which are known as AI nudification tools. It should be stressed that these are not unique to Grok in any way. It is just that Grok perhaps used these as a unique selling point.

These recent controversies involving major AI platforms have demonstrated exactly how serious the harm is. It is a violation of dignity and privacy. In many cases it is a weapon used against women, particularly those who run for election. As rapporteur, I will be seeking to have the practice explicitly classified as prohibited under Article 5 of the AI Act. As Article 5 is already in place, any such ban would take immediate effect across all member states from enactment. I am encouraged that in the Parliament there is a broad spectrum of support across the political spectrum, but I urge Senators who are members of political parties affiliated with one of the larger groups that is not in support of the proposition to lobby those parties. I am talking about the EPP which, for reasons we have yet to determine, is currently not supportive of the proposition. However, it is early days in the legislative process. Crucially, the Irish Government has signalled its support and that it is supporting an initiative being led primarily by France. With Ireland holding the Presidency, that matters.

Alongside having a role in respect of the AI Act, I am shadow rapporteur on the digital omnibus, the Commission's parallel package, which has very significant implications for the GDPR and the wider architecture of European data law. The digital omnibus includes proposals that would change how pseudonymised data can be shared, how AI companies process sensitive data and the legal basis under the GDPR for using that data for training AI.

One element is the codification of the judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union, CJEU, but there are many people, myself included, who believe that what is proposed actually goes further. These are not technical footnotes; these are fundamental questions affecting fundamental rights. The CJEU has repeatedly said that the right to privacy regarding one's data is a key right in the EU and one that becomes increasingly important as we rely more and more on smartphones and as our data can more readily be abused by nefarious actors.

Senators will be aware that Ireland's Data Protection Commission is the lead supervisory authority in Europe for many of the world's largest tech companies, precisely because so many of them have their European headquarters here. This means that this is not just of legal and moral interest to us, it is also of great economic interest. Ireland is uniquely exposed. When the GDPR is weakened or enforcement is diluted, Ireland is in the spotlight. When we hold the Presidency, we will simultaneously be chairing the negotiations that will determine the outcome. Ireland needs to be clear-eyed about the pressures that will come during the Presidency. The major tech companies headquartered in Dublin, many of which are global leaders in AI, have significant financial and political interests in the outcomes of the AI omnibus and the digital omnibus. They will engage and lobby, as is their right, but holding the Presidency demands that Ireland act as an honest broker for all 27 member states and all European citizens. It does not mean being the tech companies' preferred chair at the table. The Data Protection Commission has painstakingly and, as many would acknowledge, almost painfully built over many years a reputation as a serious, rigorous and independent regulator. Ireland's Presidency must be consistent with that reputation, not in tension with it.

Ireland has always taken its European responsibilities seriously. It is a small country but one that has embraced the opportunities that membership of the EU afforded it. When we held the Presidency before, we demonstrated size is not a barrier to effective and principled leadership. The challenges facing the Union in the second half of 2026 will be considerable. The ongoing war on the Continent has been mentioned. There is also a fraying transatlantic relationship, to which we are particularly exposed, and the matters of negotiations on the next long-term budget, including the CAP, and a digital and AI agenda that will shape the kind of society Europe becomes. Ireland must approach all of this in the spirit that has always defined its European engagement, namely as a constructive partner, an honest broker and a country that believes in the EU.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McNamara and call Ms Cynthia Ní Mhurchú.

Ms Cynthia Ní Mhurchú:

Gabhaim buíochas ó chroí leis an gCathaoirleach, leis na Seanadóirí uilig atá i láthair um thráthnóna, agus le foireann iomlán an tSeanaid as an gcuireadh flaithiúil a thabhairt dúinn teacht os comhair an Tí. Is é seo an chéad uair domsa a bheith sa Teach seo ag labhairt os comhair na Seanadóirí. Is mór an pléisiúr agus an phribhléid dom a bheith anseo. I am delighted to be in the Senators' presence this afternoon. I thank them very much for this opportunity to speak to them.

The Seanad has a crucial role. It is critical to the legislative system. The Senators are the important súil eile, the other eye, the critical eye, that protects our citizens and enriches our democracy. Bunreacht na hÉireann in 1937 gave Senators their clear role in the legislative process, and their work ensures that citizens' concerns are articulated in our laws. This is a critical part of our democratic process. It is more critical than ever as the far right sweeps across Europe, sowing doubt and mistrust in our democratic institutions.

I have two stories for the Senators. Suígí siar. The first one is about P.J. Hickson, who is an SME retailer in Carlow. He is the kind of businessman that really breathes life into the urban and rural aspects of County Carlow. His business creates jobs, supports local teams and provides opportunities for hauliers and a raft of other businesses in small towns and villages that the Senators represent around Ireland. People like P.J. and his employees are the anchors of our communities, but today P.J. is thinking about red tape. To run his business he needs separate licences for wine, spirits, beer, tobacco, vapes, fuel, wild salmon, you name it. He needs 20, in fact. Each licence involves paperwork, inspections, costs and stress. He does not have the resources to deal with these, and that is even before he begins to deal with the HSE, Irish Water, the Workplace Relations Commission, the Health and Safety Authority and the Revenue Commissioners. Of course, these also have their forms and requirements. On top of it all, P.J. has to do the hardest thing of all, which is to make money so he can pay his staff, pay his way and serve customers.

My second story is about a Wexford farmer, John Roche. He has a medium-sized farm, of 55 ha, in south Wexford. He is well off, the neighbours say. They say he has nothing to worry about. Do you know what? He really does. He worries all the time. He grew up with eight siblings and none of them wanted to run the farm. They left him and went to college in Dublin and got good jobs. It was left up to him to transform the mixed enterprise on the farm into something viable. If he were still working the mixed enterprise farm, he would need licences for everything his parents did. Fast forward to today, what is John doing? He is milking 70 cows to make the farm viable. He has some calves – beef follow-ons. He sows grain to have a food source for the winter. He does it all on his own, leis féin. His income is way too low to pay for any help beyond his children, who are getting older. What youngster wants to be facing the challenges of farming? John is 68 and has no formal education. He inherited the farm only at the age of 56, when his dad passed away. He is too old to do anything else and he has not had time to follow a different career path. He works all day and at night goes inside to the kitchen table and faces all the red tape, an téip dhearg. Oh my God, tá ualach ann. There are mountains of it on the table. Tá sé tuirseach agus buartha. He is really anxious over form filling and looming deadlines. He has to employ a special adviser, who gets a cut of his basic income support for sustainability, agri-climate rural environment scheme and targeted agriculture modernisation scheme payments. His income has steadily reduced bliain i ndiaidh bliana. He wants to get out of farming but nobody wants to take over the farm.

These two stories are indicative of the culture that has been allowed to build up in the EU over many decades – a culture focused on regulation and that is smothering innovation. It is a culture that has determined that the delivery of housing and large-scale infrastructure is slow and problematic. Like me, the Senators know all about that only too well. The culture is one in which SMEs, farmers, tech and manufacturing companies and other sectors of European society have been burdened by decades of excessive regulation.

One of the first documents to cross my desk when I was elected was Mario Draghi's report on European competitiveness, which the Senators will all have heard about. It delivered a stark warning: Europe is struggling to compete because of heavy regulation. Across Europe, SMEs make up 99% of all businesses. They are engines of employment, innovation and local prosperity but they are being absolutely smothered. Meanwhile, businesses in rival economies are moving, innovating and scaling faster. Europe really needs to work for its people, not the other way around. Unfortunately, our people tend to see the EU as a far-off bureaucracy that exists to create unreasonable, unmanageable and unrealistic environmental laws predominantly, but also other laws. They do not hear about the successes of the EU, including a Single Market of 450 million people in which young people can work and do business in any one of the 27 member states, although not seamlessly, it has to be said.

The EU project has transformed Ireland from a wholly agri-based economy to a high-tech, globalised, powerhouse super-economy, ranking second in the EU for GDP per capita, with a figure of €81,200.It is a project that has brought peace. I would hope that a key part of Ireland's Presidency of the Council later this year involves sharing the message of the success of Europe. I would hope that Ireland's Presidency of the EU can drive the competitiveness agenda so that farmers, small businesses and large-scale companies, all of whom we represent, can be built up and we can find our mojo of competitiveness again. The stakes could not be higher. Everybody has mentioned it here before me. We must have the confidence and courage to strip away the unnecessary red tape that has accumulated for decades.

Ireland's Presidency of the Council gives us a real chance to steer because the direction of Europe is at a critical moment. Ireland is good at presidencies and as has been said, we are trusted. Our reputation and influence go far beyond our size. What I would say to Members today is beirimis bua le chéile i rith na hUachtaránachta. Let us work together. Vive l'Europe, es lebe Europa, ar aghaidh leis an Eoraip agus Éire go brách.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all our MEPs for a broad range and great sample of all the challenges and opportunities that face Ireland, the EU and its citizens this year and in the years ahead.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Fáilte go léir to the representatives of Ireland South. On behalf of Fianna Fáil, I thank them for their addresses. I look forward to continued engagement as the afternoon progresses. I wish to raise three issues that touch upon contributions some of the MEPs made. The first is the pressing matter of social media accounts and instant messaging platforms, particularly with regard to our young people and our children. The single biggest pressure facing parents today and their greatest worry is the moment they feel compelled to give their child a smartphone. It usually comes after confirmation in sixth class just before they move into first year of secondary school. Parents tell me they do not want to do it yet they feel intense pressure. They fear their child will be the only one without a device, the odd one out in a new school environment and subject to ridicule. At the same time, evidence of harm from social media and instant messaging platforms continues to mount. It includes relentless pure comparison, addictive design and the very real dangers of grooming and sexual abuse, particularly on platforms such as Snapchat, where disappearing messages and private channels make oversight extremely difficult. I welcome the leadership shown through the Digital Services Act and the AI Act. They demonstrate that Europe can regulate powerful technologies in the public interest. I also welcome the European Commission's investigation into Grok and Temu regarding the reported sale of childlike sex dolls but now we must go further. If big tech is today's big tobacco then banning one platform at a time for those under 16 is like tackling vaping one flavour at a time. By the time we regulate one app, three new ones will have appeared. We simply will not be able to keep pace with every new trendy platform, every update and every workaround so I want to put the question to MEPs: Are we focusing on the wrong end of the problem? Instead of chasing platforms, should we not focus on the gateway, which is the hardware itself? Just as we introduced age restrictions on alcohol and cigarettes, should we now seriously consider EU-wide age restrictions on the sale and use of smart and instant messaging-enabled devices for those under 16 in a co-ordinated European approach? In parallel, we should, of course, to continue focus on all the other necessary forms such as turning off recommender systems by default, disabling autoplay and introducing meaningful ID verification to tackle bots as we are doing ourselves here in Ireland or trying to do.

My second point concerns regional connectivity and economic competitiveness. As a Senator living in Limerick, I am highly aware of the importance of regional access to the EU marketplace through Shannon Airport and the disadvantage that lack of daily business connectivity from Shannon into the EU market hub places on businesses in the mid-west region. Cynthia Ní Mhurchú mentioned Mario Draghi's report in support of competitiveness and our SMEs across the country. Should we not legislate for or support regional connectivity at an EU level?

Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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It is very important that the MEPs are here with us today. We often see or feel that there is a disconnect between our representatives in Europe and our representatives and people here. How do the MEPs feel we can bridge the gap not so much with our politicians but with our people because our connection and our place in Europe have never been more important than now? We are seeing a massive fragmentation of the Union and of parties within the Union but also of politics at a global level. When we have a fragmented and a weakened democracy, it weakens us economically and makes us more vulnerable to other markets. How do we address that deficit? How do we protect our democracy and the rule of law because this is something that the Union stands for and it is something we definitely are not doing enough for at the moment? As democracy and values are very important and will probably play a large role in our Presidency, how do we deal with that?

Second, I would like to speak about the multi-annual financial framework, MFF. During our last EU Council Presidency, we worked to deliver the final MFF and I would be optimistic that that would happen during our Council Presidency this year. In particular, I would like to speak about CAP reform, which has already been touched on by several of the MEPs. Obviously, it is incredibly disappointing that we have seen a decrease in our CAP budget and a change in the way in which CAP functions. We have seen the removal of the two-pillar system. Do the MEPs believe there is any scope for this to change? When we look at the national and regional partnership plan, NRPP, and CAP coming from within that, all of our local development companies and groups that receive LEADER funding are very concerned. Will groups be fighting for this funding for Ireland? Our NRPP budget at the moment is somewhere in the region of €12 billion with €8 billion allocated to agriculture and €4 billion allocated to the remaining supports. Is there scope there? I think Billy Kelleher mentioned that. The only way that I see, and it has been commented on by Commissioner Serafin, to increase our budget is if we have a larger input from member states and if they desire to do that because it is disappointing to see such a decrease in our CAP budget, in particular for our young farmers. We are not talking enough about generational renewal. We talk about security and defence and we have a massively increased security and defence budget but what about our food security and encouraging our young farmers? I appreciate it is within CAP and that our own Government has published a report on it but what are we going to do on a practical level to ensure food security and to ensure generational renewal within our agricultural sector?

There is a lot of talk at the moment about the savings and investment union. How do we deepen the Single Market and how do we improve regulatory simplification and take burdens off businesses to allow them to flourish?

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I thank the MEPs for coming in here this afternoon. Time is short so I will jump right in. Regarding the EU-India trade and mobility negotiations, Ireland's Indian population rose from 59,600 to 70,000 in a single year and is on track to become the largest foreign national group in the State. As this is happening while governments claim migration is being tightened, I ask our MEPs, particularly Mr. Kelly and Mr. Kelleher because they sit on the industry, research and energy and the economic and monetary affairs committees, whether any of them raised concerns about the demographic impact on our infrastructure and social services of these mobility concessions in the EU-India deal? Do they support labour mobility being written into trade packages, "Yes" or "No", because they cannot tell the Irish people migration is being restricted while supporting expanded inflows in Brussels?

My second point concerns the recent resolution to respectively enshrine abortion as an EU fundamental right and to emphasise the full recognition of trans women as women. Regarding the former, Irish voters were repeatedly assured in the referenda on the Lisbon and Nice treaties and previous referenda that abortion would remain a national competence yet the proposed initial initiative would embed abortion access within EU-level rights architecture, so I ask the MEPs whether they accept that this contradicts what Irish voters were told? Regarding the recognition of trans women as women, can the MEPs explain what legal assessments have been carried out on the implications relating to member states whose equality, healthcare, sports, education and other frameworks rely on sex-based categories? Do they accept that enforcing recognition at EU level may breach the principle of subsidiarity by overriding national competence on how sex and gender are defined in law?You cannot promise one thing during referendums and deliver the opposite when in Brussels.

On the Digital Services Act, Ireland hosts the European head quarters of all major platforms now under the Commission’s oversight. Across Europe, we have seen political content branded as systemic risk or disinformation. We have seen elections cancelled. I spoke about this issue last week. This is something that has been called electoral interference by the US House Judiciary Committee. What safeguards exist to make sure lawful Irish political dissent, including criticism of migration policy and other uncomfortable issues, is not algorithmically suppressed under DSA compliance pressure? Did our MEPs assess the sovereignty implications of shifting tech supervision from Dublin to Brussels?

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I want to ask a question. I did not want to interrupt Senator Keogan. Is it within the Standing Orders of this House to identify one nationality or ethnic group for hostile scrutiny?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, please.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Because that community has been subjected to harassment and assault-----

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I have Indian personal assistants-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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-----beautiful young men working with my son who are afraid to go north of the Liffey - and I am from north of the Liffey – for fear of assault or intimidation. I think as public representatives-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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-----we have to be very responsible in the language that we use.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senators know the Standing Orders in relation to contributions in this House. They are well aware of them and use them themselves. I ask the Senator - people have a privilege in this House and must use that privilege carefully. The Senator is aware of the Standing Order.

Anois, an Seanadóir Murphy.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na feisirí Eorpacha go dtí an Seanad inniu. Gan dabht tá tionchar mór ag polaitíocht na hEorpa ar Éirinn. Gabhaim buíochas leo as an obair atá á dhéanamh acu.

It was really interesting listening to the contributions. There were a lot of themes. They included neutrality not equalling ambivalence and the importance of sovereignty for member states in the EU. There have been many attempts to undermine that sovereignty, the EU project and the principles on which the EU project was founded of democracy, equality, rule of law, promoting peace and stability. The reasons there are actors out there trying to undermine the EU is because we know the EU project works and has huge potential to be even stronger. That is really important.

It is also important that we have specific MEPs for the regions too because there are so many regions within Ireland. Ireland South is unique in itself. Being from Cork myself, it is great to see our Cork MEP here today.

The Labour Party is very proud of our MEP, Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, who is in the Socialist and Democrats group in the EU. He has been championing a number of issues in relation to housing, child poverty, technology and AI, as well as climate and the challenges we face in relation to that.

I wish that the European Parliament had taken a stronger stance overall in relation to Palestine and had called the genocide out earlier. That will be something that stands out in history. We still have an opportunity to act in relation to that. I know many of the MEPs here have been vocal on it.

Education is an example of where the European Parliament has really excelled in terms of the Erasmus programmes and collaboration between universities.

I have a question on the area of disability. There are 87 million disabled people in the EU. Only half are in employment which is less than the average. Ireland is a laggard in that we are 20% behind the EU average in employment for disabled people. Do the MEPs have a view on that?

There have been very mixed views from the European Union on the topic of migration. Ireland has benefited hugely from migration. There are people here bringing their skills and culture, enriching our society and propping up our health service in many instances. That is something to be celebrated and the EU needs to be stronger in promoting that message.

A Senator:

Hear, hear.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I welcome all the MEPs. I will begin by supporting Senator Murphy’s point on the theme of peace. The theme of peace and active neutrality should be something that is central to Ireland’s Presidency. We have had huge benefit in knowledge and learning on what actual peace building looks like. It is not simply about military security but things like Resolution 1325 on the role of women, recognising social cohesion funding, which is sadly being cut in the European Union in order to redirect it for military purposes. Things like social cohesion and Resolution 1325 are part of what peace building is. Neutrality is not ambivalent; I do not think anyone suggests it would be. Active neutrality means you are applying the same principles to all; that your actions are not based on interest but on values and that international law applies to all. I would urge that another theme, where Ireland could really contribute, could be on international law and a recommitment to that being part of the Irish Presidency. Sadly, whether areas like protecting the International Criminal Court or ensuring that international law is properly reflected in relation to Palestine when it is not in terms of the ICJ, the EU loses really important credibility. Ireland could strengthen that and drive a recommitment to international law, as well as international engagement in areas such as international aid because that is part of Ireland's proud legacy. I was one of four parliamentarians who were part of the Future of Europe project. I am very sad when I look at it now. There has been a losing of the way from what was there in that Future of Europe process. What I heard from citizens, not just from Ireland but 800 citizens right across Europe, was what they valued about Europe were things like its standards. It raised the bar on equality, on the environment, on digital regulation, crucially, and on employment standards. It raised the bar constantly. That is what they valued. They also valued the diversity of Europe, fundamental human rights and Europe's record in protecting those across all genders and races. Yet, those aspects are what are being undercut right now.

I would like some of the MEPs who are on the finance committees to talk about how moneys are being redirected, sadly, away from the things that are valued, such as social cohesion and the LIFE programme, and being pushed into €800 billion in military weapons. Hungary has been mentioned a lot. There have been loans of €16 billion for Hungary to buy armaments, which may or may not include cluster munitions. We have not had assurances on that. I am very concerned about that direction of focus within the EU budgetary process, the simplification narrative and the removal of standards through omnibus legislation, which is moving fast and undercutting a lot of what all of us are proud of in Europe. I am worried that we may not be minding the past or properly minding the future.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Members of the European Parliament to respond - they have three minutes apiece - to the questions asked. If Members feel they did not get an answer to their question, we will bring them back in later. I want the engagement. After the MEPs respond, we will have one-minute questions from the remaining Senators. We will have that over-and-back exchange, which will benefit everybody in teasing out the answers.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

I thank the Chair. I thank everyone for the questions. I will try to go really fast because three minutes to answer all those is quite challenging.

I agree with the comments about Shannon Airport. Part of the reason I was so anxious to run for Europe was that my region of the south east gets left behind a lot. That is the same for lots of areas of Ireland South. We need to see balanced regional development, which we try to bring to the REGI committee I referenced. It makes so much sense from so many different points of view. I would love to get into more of a discussion but I am trying to cover a number of points.

On social media in relation to young people, I have two teenagers and the area of children's rights has always been of big interest to me. I feel very torn on it. I do not want to see a situation where social media companies are let off the hook. I am not sure an all-out ban is the answer, if you are just exposed to everything at the age of 16. There need to be really good discussions with the Children's Rights Alliance, CyberSafeKids and different organisations like that because algorithms and the recommender systems need to be challenged. It is something that should have a good consultation before any decisions are made in relation to it.

I wanted to mention CAP and the fishing industry in my first contribution but I ran out of time. I am really concerned at the moment. Probably most of us share the view that we should be challenging to ensure that CAP is maintained and increased if possible. On the different pillars, LEADER funding comes from Pillar 2, for example. If that is eroded, what would that potentially mean for LEADER? A lot of people do not understand that and do not know that. The LEADER programme is doing unbelievable work right throughout rural Ireland. We need to keep highlighting and talking about those things.

I totally agree with the comments from Senator Conor Murphy about the conference. I am 100% supportive of that. I often say that we need to look more to the expertise we have in relation to the Good Friday Agreement from all sides and push on that.

I agree with the comments that Europe has not been strong enough on Palestine. We need to do an awful lot more. I am really worried about the direction we are going in terms of militarisation, for example, with cohesion funds. The WorkAbility programme helps people with an additional need or disability to potentially access employment. Programmes like that could potentially suffer. That is why it is important, if people are arguing for money and more funds towards the military, that they say where they think that should come from. Is it coming from CAP? Is it coming from the cohesion policy, for example?

I agree with Senator Clonan's comments. Immigration has had a huge positive impact in this country. Any of our hospitals or our hospitality sector would collapse without people. As a nation, we have gone all over the world and know what it is like to be treated as second-class citizens. At this worrying and difficult time, it is important that we stand up and are really strong against anything that is in any way negative in relation to that. Maybe I can come back in on some of the other points.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely.

Mr. Billy Kelleher:

I thank the Senators for their questions and observations.

On social media platforms and the very large online platforms, we have the Digital Services Act, the Digital Markets Act and the AI Act. There is no doubt there is now a mood across Europe and probably across the western world, as we traditionally called it, on the impact that social media is having on children and young adults. Australia and France have made a decision and a number of other countries are making decisions on this. The mood here in Ireland is very much towards that as well. We have heard this debate in the European Parliament from what I will call people on the right of the right, because they do not like being called far right, but the situation here is that we are not suppressing free speech. The idea is to make sure that platforms are open and transparent in their algorithmic settings, for example, and if we are passing legislation, an age verification process is in place so that a child who is on it is not a child of 12, 13 or 14, but at an age decided by legislators, either at a national level or as an EU competency. It is that we would have age verification.

As a parent and politician, and looking back over my time as a parent and phones in my children's lives, the idea that we would farm out what my children can watch, what they read and how they even think to Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, or any other Zuckerbergs or Elon Musks, is fundamentally wrong. We have to have some benchmark for what misinformation, disinformation, fact, fiction, injurious and causing harm are and ultimately, sometimes, what causes death. This House passed legislation, Coco's Law, which was a direct consequence of the bullying of a young girl on social media. We have to be conscious that it is causing harm. It is to get the balance right.

I will come to the issue of the multi-annual financial framework raised by Senator Lynch. The difficulty here is we are trying to pretend that the budget will add up. It is not going to add up. We are pretending that we will be able to address cohesion funding, the Common Agricultural Policy, the fisheries policy, Horizon 2020, Erasmus and all the other programmes that we funded previously. At the same time, no country is saying whether it will contribute more or allow the European Union to raise its own resources either through a digital services tax, a financial transaction tax or some other form of revenue-raising measure. At the moment, we propose a corporation tax for very large multinationals. We are saying it will bring in €65 billion. Any assessment will suggest it will bring in an awful lot less than half of that. We are trying to build budgets on fictitious means.

I only got through my first page, but with regard to Senator Keogan and the issue of abortion being enshrined in EU law, all I can say is that I sat as a Member of these Houses on an eighth amendment committee. I sat on many committees over my life in the Oireachtas. We had a referendum on 25 May 2018. The Irish people were emphatic in what they said. It is now lawful and legal to provide abortion services in Ireland. Equally, other countries have the opportunity to decide for themselves. It is still a member competency but, at the same time, the EU has an entitlement to express a view around the fact that it should be in the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Mr. Seán Kelly:

I thank the Senators for their questions and comments. Some of them have been answered by Ms Funchion and Mr. Kelleher already.

Cyberbullying is another big issue in relation to the whole social media area. I have been involved in addressing that for 15 years now or more. Thankfully, my group wants to make cyber-bullying a crime. That has to happen. The other issue which would help to curtail what is going on with social media is dealing with the whole question of anonymous accounts. That really has to be dealt with. Senators themselves, and all of us, are being abused every single day on social media by people who we probably do not know.It could be the same person. That has to stop. The power of the platforms has to be curtailed. There is movement in that direction in order to make them more responsible and accountable. That is a good thing. Senator Lynch mentioned communication of Europe. A lot more could be done but it is not as bad as people say. It would help if we had more Erasmus students and visitor groups going to Europe, learning what is going on there as opposed to what they hear. At the same time, where Ireland is concerned, we have the highest percentage of people who are pro-Europe in the European Union. Things are perhaps not as bad as they say. Local radio and local newspapers often do far more than the national ones. Mr. Kelleher mentioned the vote last week. That is not a legislative file; it is an own initiative report. It came from FEMM. It is to advise the Council ahead of the 70th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. That was no real controversy. I think every Irish MEP voted in favour of it. It was carried by 340 to 131. It is not legislative, however. One has to make a distinction between legislative and something only trying to make a point on behalf of a committee or whatever. I agree completely with the interparliamentary conference. It would be a very good idea. I was first vice-chair of the EU-UK Parliamentary Partnership Assembly between the European Parliament, the House of Commons and the House of Lords. We have made a lot of progress. Things are back on track in many respects in terms of the European Union and United Kingdom. As for anything else we can do to bring that about and particularly to promote peace - peace is always fragile - there is a lot to be done in that regard and I would back that conference 100%.

In relation to CAP funding, Mr. Kelleher gave the honest answer - there are too many people looking for money without knowing where the money is going to come from. The war in Ukraine, energy costs, Trump's tariffs, undercutting by China and the need to develop a grid to carry energy - all these things have to be done. To suggest there is more money there, I will tell you what will be said. They will be asked why did they not vote for Mercosur. It would be worth €50 billion a year to the European Union and that might help us get some funding. People have to be honest. If governments are not prepared to put more in, they cannot expect to get more out.

Mr. Michael McNamara:

On the issue of air transport, as a former TD for Clare and somebody who makes their way from Clare to Brussels, I lament the concentration of all air navigation in Dublin at the moment. The removal of the cap will be a further step in that process. All Senators and TDs, including those from the mid-west, will get to vote on that in the very near future, it seems. Even if it goes through, it will offer opportunities for other airports because the infrastructure simply is not there for Dublin to expand in the way some airline companies would like to see it expand for their own profit. It is not about the good of Ireland; it is about their profit and their profit-making ventures; they are entitled to pursue profit at the exclusion of everything else.

I share the Senator's concerns about digital bullying. I think it is something most people have a concern for. A ban at EU level for under-16s would be very much against the direction of travel of this Commission. One could argue Donald Trump has had more success in implementing his agenda with regard to big tech in the Berlaymont than he has on Capitol Hill. He has tried to get a moratorium on state legislation through and has failed. Nobody really knows what was agreed with von der Leyen but the direction of travel is certainly not towards banning them.

On generational renewal, I have had the opportunity to meet the current agriculture Commissioner several times. I even got to go to a mart with him once. While I think he has a profound commitment to generational renewal, some of the measures he is proposing would not find favour in Ireland around making sure European payments are to a new generation.

On the India trade agreement, it is not possible to address migration from India to Ireland without resolutely condemning the orchestrated attacks on the Indian community here last summer. It is not possible to visit an Irish hospital without being struck by how reliant we are on Indian nurses. Much as we lament that we train medics in Ireland who then go abroad, imagine how they feel in Kerala, a much poorer area, that essentially is training the medics who prop up our health system because we seem to fail to do so.

On the DSA, I accept there is a risk but the real issue is not what some idiot chooses to say on social media; it is that it is amplified. The central part of the DSA which is important is algorithmic transparency.

As somebody who listened very carefully to the debate on repealing the eighth amendment, I voted to repeal it and I would do so again tomorrow morning. That said, one can hold that view and still lament the rise in the abortion level in Ireland. We need to address the societal reasons people feel they cannot have children and why we have this huge demographic decline in Europe. It cannot be addressed through constitutions or criminal laws. It is something society must face up to. Those who argued to repeal the eighth amendment said the Constitution was no place for provisions on abortion, Roe vs. Wade and all of that. I share their view with regard to putting it into what is a quasi-constitutional Charter of Fundamental Rights. It is not something I would support. Likewise on trans rights, there was a judgment of the Supreme Court in the UK with which I largely agree; in particular the part that these are vulnerable people who deserve to be treated with integrity, respect and dignity. It is lamentable the extent to which they can become the subject of a political football. I fundamentally support the nub of that judgment and the resolution last week Mr. Kelly referred to. That particular provision is not something I could vote for. I support the proposals of Senators Murphy and Higgins around a peace conference and for Ireland to set out its position and the case for neutrality in the world because every war is brought to an end ultimately by negotiation and discussion. There have to be players left who are not militarily aligned who can bring about that discussion. That is with the exception of the Second World War where there was an unconditional surrender, which is very unusual in history.

Mr. Billy Kelleher:

It was a fairly big war.

Mr. Michael McNamara:

I just hope there will not have to be an unconditional surrender in the case of Ukraine.

Ms Cynthia Ní Mhurchú:

I will start off with peace and neutrality. It would be a huge opportunity and I would love to work with the Senators on that. It is something I have been reaching out to parties and groups in Europe about. It has to include everybody from the Skainos Centre on Newtownards Road, where I was recently, or Cultúrlann McAdam Ó Fiaich ar Bhóthar na bhFál. Northern Ireland cannot be left out. Ms Funchion and I meet frequently to help out the Northern Ireland Executive, which has an office in Brussels. It is really important to include them in the Presidency. I thank the Senators for raising and apologies that none of us mentioned it. We had limited time.

I thank Senator Dee Ryan. The reason I went on the transport committee was because of regional airports, predominantly a little regional airport that did not have any flights going in and out of it, namely, Waterford, but there is also Shannon, Cork and Kerry. I have a campaign at the moment, Keep Europe Flying, because we know about rising costs. Regional connectivity is vital. It is such an economic driver but also a driver for tourism. In relation to social media, based on my reading and the research of the anti-bullying centre in DCU - a spokesperson was on the "News at One" this afternoon. The Senator may have heard him. Professor TJ McIntyre spoke on "Morning Ireland" this morning - the Senator might have heard him as well. Bans are not working. While the bans the Government is considering are worth considering, they are not backed by any of the data or resources. We need the evidence to show we would not be enacting something that is futile. We do not want to be busy fools enacting laws that cannot be policed or regulated. We need to see laws that actually work. At the minute, all those bans are not working. It also does a disservice to young people who have asked not for bans, according to the research in the anti-bullying Centre in DCU. I thank Senator Lynch very much. She had lots of questions there. I will pick out the issue of the fragmentation and weakening our democracy. One of the best ways for us to strengthen our democracy is to invest in our trusted media. I am working on the European democracy shield. It is a temporary committee set up under Commissioner McGrath, which is looking at independent and local media and all of that. It is like the housing committee, in that it is temporary, but we are hoping it will see out the lifetime of this mandate. It is important to protect our democracy.

I cannot touch on the savings and investment union. I apologise but we do not have time.

I thank Senator Keogan very much for her points. I reiterate what Seán Kelly said. This was not exactly a vote in relation to anything to do with gender recognition or anything like that. It was about women's rights and the UN Council that is happening. It was to send a delegation to that. It is hijacked constantly by the far right, which is something that troubles me. I agree with Michael McNamara in relation to trans people being used as political footballs in these kinds of debates. That is to be regretted because they are vulnerable people. As Seán Kelly said, we were endorsing what we voted for in relation to abortion. We also were endorsing the legislation that we have, the Gender Recognition Act 2015, under which people over the age of 18 can make an application to identify.

I apologise that I am running out of time. I thank Senator Harmon very much her for comments. Employment for the disabled and those who are less able is very important. I thank her for her comments on immigration. We need to serve our citizens better, a chairde. We need to talk about the real story about immigration and not let it be dominated by the far right. I know that is very difficult. I am delving into that myself. Obviously, people are targeted once they do start speaking out.

I hope I mentioned everyone who spoke because I do not want to leave anybody out.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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In this section, I ask Members to indicate whether a particular question is directed at a particular MEP or for all the MEPs. I ask the MEPs to take notes and make sure they try to respond to the Senators' questions. I appreciate Senators coming to the House and the MEPs taking the time to answer the questions. Members will have one minute each for the questions. We will get a group of questions together and then let the MEPs respond. If Senators feel they want further engagement, please ask because that is what this is about.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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A number of weeks ago, a resolution was before the European Parliament condemning the slaughter of 30,000 people by the Iranian authorities, the use of execution as a tool of oppression of the people of Iran and the treatment of women, and supporting the Women, Life, Freedom campaign. In recent weeks, 30,000 people have been slaughtered by the Iranian regime in an attempt to suppress an uprising. People are being executed in hospital beds. They are being shot in the head, yet two Sinn Féin MEPs abstained on this resolution.

Women in prison are asking families to send them in contraceptive pills because they are being raped so frequently in prison. This is how evil this Iranian regime is. Sinn Féin cannot bring itself to condemn this evil regime. If a young woman is being executed, and many young women and men are being executed, the night before the execution she has to be raped by prison wardens because if she dies a virgin she will go to heaven, and they cannot allow this. This is the reality of what is happening in Iran. This is the evil regime that Sinn Féin cannot condemn. I am watching what it is doing. The people of Ireland are watching what it is doing. Sinn Féin thinks it can get away with its actions in the European Parliament and nobody will notice. Why did Kathleen Funchion, MEP, abstain on this vote? I want an explanation as to why this-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senators to stick to one minute. The next speaker is Senator Cathal Byrne.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I did not get to the end of my contribution. I wanted to pose a question on a very important topic. A lot of other Members ran over their time.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The Order, as agreed by the House, is that there will be one minute per question. That is what was put forward at the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight.

Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
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In 2017, then Taoiseach Enda Kenny, together with others, secured a commitment from the EU that if Ireland were to be reunified, the North of Ireland would be automatically subsumed into the EU. The estimated cost at the moment is in the region of approximately €20 billion per annum. As a republican and someone who wants to see a referendum on the unification of Ireland, but also a referendum that passes, there is an important role for the EU in this. My question is for all the MEPs. In the next round of budgets, will they keep on the agenda the issue of monetary support for the costs of the ultimate reunification of this country?

Joe Conway (Independent)
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In Europe, about 125 million of our citizens are aged 60 or over. I am sometimes distressed to see that we have Directive 98/58/EC, which governs the welfare of cattle in the EU. Would the Cathaoirleach care to guess how many directives we have governing the welfare of our older citizens? Zero. If we look at the letter of appointment from President von der Leyen to Commissioner Micallef who has responsibility for these matters, it shows his tabulated responsibilities are intergenerational awareness, culture, sport and youth. However, there is no mention of older citizens. I have a question for our Ireland South MEPs. I address it in particular to mo chara Seán Ó Ceallaigh mar tá sé ar chomhaois liomsa agus an duine is sine ar an mbinse sin. Tá fáilte roimhe freagra a thabhairt dom.

Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I will direct my questions to Séan Kelly, MEP. Why did he vote against referring the EU Mercosur trade agreement to the European Court of Justice? I know he spoke about that in his opening remarks and a couple of times thereafter. Was there a whip in place for that vote? I ask this in light of the recent block-in of the Hague fisheries safeguards by a group of the larger member states, an outcome which is expected to probably cost Ireland up to €200 million. There are real concerns that the safeguards can be weakened in practice. How can Irish farmers have confidence that the safeguards that are put in place as regards the Mercosur trade agreement will be legally robust and cannot simply be undermined or vetoed?

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh Bhaill Pharlaimint na hEorpa. I welcome the MEPs. I have a question to all the MEPs on the multi-annual financial framework and the dedicated funding. I welcome the engagement we had on the nature restoration regulation and, in particular, the bravery shown by Irish MEPs in getting that regulation across the line. We now need to go the distance and move to fully fund nature restoration in Ireland. We will be developing a plan that will be brought forward in September in Ireland. We need support for that. We need financial support. I met with the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association last week in Sligo. It wants funding. There is deep concern around the funding of that, but also around LIFE projects, European Innovation Partnerships, EIPs, the funding of which is to be subsumed into the competitiveness fund. It is very important from the MEPs' point of views that they argue and fight for a dedicated stream of funding for nature restoration and to ensure that the LIFE and EIP projects are maintained as stand-alone funding measures.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I will be as brief as I can. Billy Kelleher always tells it as it is. We all want more, but we are not willing to identify how we are going to pay for it. I look forward to him making a presentation at the next parliamentary party meeting looking for more money off us to balance the budget. I cannot agree more with Séan Kelly. We are losing sight of the bigger picture. We are focusing on specific individual issues and losing sight of the common good and a lot of stuff that is happening at the moment, not just in relation to Mercosur but with other things.

My point to Cynthia Ní Mhurchú rolls into the committee the Cathaoirleach set up on EU scrutiny and the transposition of EU legislation into Irish law.It is frightening to say that we will probably introduce 50 pieces of Irish legislation this year but we will transpose 200 pieces of European legislation into Irish law with no oversight. Legislation that starts in Europe probably doubles the amount of red tape for us. Certain European legislation is delaying critical infrastructure in Ireland. How do we interact more closely with MEPs to head this off before it becomes a single piece of European legislation and is transposed into Irish law?

Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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Chomh maith le gach éinne eile, cuirim fáilte roimh feisirí Pharlaimint na hEorpa. Tá sé an-tábhachtach iad a fheiscint istigh sa Teach seo. Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur mar gheall ar mhéadú an Aontais. I ask for an update on the current status of the applications to join the European Union by ten accession countries, in particular, the applications of Montenegro and Ukraine. Is it envisaged that progress will be made during the term of Ireland's Presidency in the latter half of this year?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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First and foremost, I congratulate all the MEPs who were returned to the European Parliament. I know I am a bit late in doing so. I am very proud of them.

I have a defence question for Billy Kelleher, MEP. Ireland has hidden behind neutrality, although we are not neutral. We are militarily non-aligned but we do not qualify as neutral under international law. We have hidden behind neutrality to stop investment in defence. We are about to take over the Presidency of the European Union and we are not equipped to provide the required security to look after Heads of State, ministers from other governments, etc. The Taoiseach has referred to people like me as creating negative noise around defence. Do the MEPs think it is negative noise when we are about to be embarrassed internationally by virtue of the fact that we cannot provide our own defence for such a prestigious role as the Presidency of the EU? After all, the MEPs must live with their European Parliament colleagues in Europe, who I have no doubt are talking about this.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery a Member of the House of Commons, Sorcha Eastwood from the Alliance Party, who represents Lagan Valley, and her mother, who is no doubt proud. They are most welcome to Seanad Éireann. Ms Eastwood is here to meet a Minister.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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Seven Irish MEPs, including three of the MEPs present, supported Ursula von der Leyen and rejected a motion of no confidence in her in July. Why did they support Ursula von der Leyen despite her support for and facilitation of genocide in Gaza? In many ways, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael MEPs think and hope that no one will notice that they supported a genocide enabler, Ursula von der Leyen, but we see them and we hear them talking about it.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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What about Iran?

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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I did not interrupt Senator Clifford-Lee. I ask her to show respect, please.

We hear these MEPs talk about the horrors in Gaza - the genocide - but we do not see them doing anything about it. We see them supporting Ursula von der Leyen who has supported Israel to the hilt. That is not acceptable. MEPs should not do that. The Government talks about the occupied territories Bill but it will not pass it. It is blocking the Bill. The least the MEPs can do is be clear. If they support Israel, they should say they support Israel. They should not talk out of both sides of their mouths.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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Reference has been made to the Draghi report, which has been used in the EU and by Ursula von der Leyen to set a deregulation agenda. I was deeply concerned about the vote on the omnibus I package last year on the corporate sustainability due diligence directive, which saw members of the European People's Party, EPP, for the first time in the history of the European Parliament, vote with the far right. The forthcoming digital omnibus will again strip away fundamental digital protection rights. The omnibus I package stripped away fundamental human rights and environmental standards, no longer making it mandatory for companies to implement their environmental plans. All of that is hugely concerning. We often hear the term "simplification", which is being used increasingly as a synonym for deregulation. Where do the MEPs stand on this issue? What does this mean for the future of the EU around deregulation? We hear the word "competitiveness", but we can compete while also setting high standards for the rest of the world when it comes to human rights, digital protections and the environment.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I offer a warm welcome to all our MEP colleagues. As a proud Kerryman, I hope the House will allow me to direct my question on LNG and Ireland's energy security to Seán Kelly, MEP. As a full member of the European Parliament Committee on Industry, Research and Energy, ITRE, he has been closely involved in Europe's evolving energy strategy. How does he view the role of LNG as a secondary or back-up energy source for Ireland, particularly in terms of energy security, more so now than ever, and its diversification and resilience during the transition to renewables?

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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The MEPs are very welcome. I know the sacrifice they make in terms of lost time with their families when it comes to operating in Strasbourg and Brussels. I thank them for their public service. We are well represented in Europe, notwithstanding the differences we might have.

On disability rights, in advance of our Presidency, Ireland is in an outlier in the European Union. We do not have legal rights to services, supports or therapies for disabled citizens. We are the only country in the EU without that. We are in breach of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. We are in breach of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU. Ireland is in breach of principle 17 of the European Pillar of Social Rights, specifically as it applies to dignity, services and participation. We are in breach of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

The HSE, in a letter it sent to an elderly woman trying to look after her adult child with Down's syndrome, told her that she is legally responsible to "indefinitely" accommodate and care for her child until she dies. That applies in the case of children aged up to 18 years, students aged up to 23 years and disabled citizens until the parent dies. This flies in the face of the people. Can the MEPs get me in front of the disability platform in advance of Ireland talking over the Presidency? Can they get me in front of the European Disability Forum, EDF? Can they facilitate me to address the mechanism for reporting on the EU's disability strategy for the period 2021-2030?

Do the MEPs think it is okay to talk about pay inequality in a country? I think it is okay to talk about workforce planning and legal or illegal immigration because they are legitimate concerns. When one nationality or ethnic group is identified in a pejorative fashion, that group is subjected to hostile scrutiny. That is hate speech. Do the MEPs agree?

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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It is called the EU-India trade deal.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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It is called hate speech.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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It is called the EU-India trade deal.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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The Senator did not listen to what I said.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Ciúnas, más é do thoil é.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I thank the MEPs for attending. On the Mercosur agreement, why is there such a push to bring in Brazilian beef that has no traceability and contains growth hormones which are banned within the EU? Have the MEPs not a duty of care to European consumers? Is not that why we have these very protections in Europe? I advise Seán Kelly to read the report by the Irish Farmers' Journal after he has read the Sunday Independent.

Last week, Sinn Féin, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil all voted to recognise trans women as women. That was a complete betrayal of every biological woman and the rights we have long fought for. We deserve to have our rights to single-sex spaces and sports protected. Do the MEPs think that a female victim of domestic abuse should have to share a refuge with a biological man?

Our fishermen need the MEPs to work on their behalf. Their culture and industry have been taken from them and Europe has simply sat back and allowed third countries to devastate the Irish fishing industry. Why?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the MEPs to respond in the same order again, after which we will hear from the Leas-Chathaoirleach and Acting Leader.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

On the issue of Iran, we abstained from the vote because of other details in the resolution. To explain, resolutions that come before the Parliament contain a huge amount of information.Obviously, we totally condemn this situation and everything that the Senator has laid out in relation to rapes and people trying to access contraception. However, sometimes there is other detail in a resolution and it is really important that the EU plays a really strong role in the peace-building, in trying to bring stability and not make the situation worse.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, will Ms Funchion outline what other details was------

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

I am in the middle of speaking.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I am not aware of any other details so perhaps Ms Funchion would outline the rest of the detail of the resolution.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

Maybe if I am allowed to finish my contribution.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Funchion, please, without interruption.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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There is a lot of detail-----

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

There is a lot of things to get through in six minutes.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Funchion did not answer the question. I want to know what detail was objected to.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

I am moving on to the referendum on Irish-----

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

Sorry, I am not going to have this situation.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Out of respect for our guests, I ask that Ms Funchion be allowed to continue without interruption.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

I am not here to have a back and forth with Senator Clifford-Lee.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I expect my question to be answered.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

I answered the Senator's question. I was in the middle of answering it and she was cutting me off.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I want to know what detail Ms Funchion-----

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

I have three minutes to answer everyone's questions.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I want to know what detail she objects to.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Without interruption. Ms Funchion, please.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

We basically abstained in relation to that motion. When a resolution comes before Parliament there can be an awful lot of detail in it. In some situations we would agree with a lot of the detail. Obviously, we condemn the situation and we support people's right to protest and the protestors there. However, sometimes there are details in resolutions that we do not agree with in relation to the situation. We think the EU has a role to try to make the situation better and not to try to make it worse. Some of the sanctions that were indicated in that would make the situation worse and it is not apportioning blame where it should be apportioned.

Regarding the referendum on Irish unity and the costings, it is great to see people bringing that up and talking about it. It is something I would fully support. I would love to see us use the opportunity of the Presidency to be talking more about Irish unity and to have a really positive conference or an engagement to see how we could encourage that and move it on. Ultimately, I would like to see a citizens' assembly on Irish unity that would bring all sides into the discussion.

This is my third time to say I wanted to mention fishing and I have not had the opportunity to do it. We definitely need to see a proper review of the Common Fisheries Policy and we also need to consider the situation with quotas. We had some discussion last week on bluefin tuna. There is the potential for a quota for that but we are not getting it at the moment. There definitely needs to be much more discussion on that.

Disability came up in the first round and then again in the second round. I am a member of the Disability Intergroup. I would be happy to speak to those mentioned by Senator Clonan about some of the issues he raised. I am not sure if I will be in a position to get him before some of those groups about which he spoke but I am certainly happy to explore it and talk to him afterwards about it.

There was a question on an update on countries coming into the EU. We will have to come back to the Senator on that because I am not 100% sure where that stands. My experience so far of everything in the EU is that it works slowly. If you think it will take six months, it will actually take at least 12 months.

There were questions about simplification and funding from our two Kilkenny Senators, Senators Stephenson and Noonan. I am very worried that a lot of potential funds are going to be eroded for military purposes. Whenever there is talk about increased funds for military or defence, there seem to be no questions asked. There is talk of potentially changing or relaxing fiscal rules to allow that but that is not the case when it comes to other funding streams. Another really important one is our own housing situation. I know there needs to be an honest conversation about funds. Sorry, I was interrupted-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I know Ms Funchion was interrupted and I gave her extra time.

Ms Kathleen Funchion:

-----and I have really tried to stick to my time all along. There does need to be an honest conversation about funds but for me it is about political priorities. If you are under pressure, you need to see where your priorities are. Certainly, from my point of view and that of Sinn Féin, it is not towards military and defence.

Mr. Billy Kelleher:

The issue of funding and neutrality was raised by Senator Craughwell. He described how he has been called "negative noise" from time to time. I have been called that once or twice as well, so he should not worry about it too much. A report was done by the European Parliament some years ago, in advance of the war in Ukraine. It identified inherent weaknesses in Ireland's capability to protect key infrastructure such as subsea cables. That was flagged for some time. There has been an awareness in Europe for a long time that there is a weakness in Ireland's capabilities, not only in defence but in monitoring our sea territorial areas and also our skies. If we look at drug importation, for example, they do sometimes look at Irish waters as the softer option from time to time but we have had some success in recent years in combating that due to co-operation with other navies and customs forces. There is no doubt that we will depend on the goodwill of others for the six months of the Presidency to ensure we have security capability when we have Heads of State in Dublin and across Ireland, so it is a significant issue.

Senator Andrews raised an issue I will dwell on a bit. First and foremost, I am a democrat. I respect the democratic process and everybody's right to engage in it. However, what I hate is when real issues are being used in a particular context. I am not saying the Senator is doing this today. On the issue of Palestine, in the context of the vote, a motion of censure on Ursula von der Leyen was an appallingly distasteful thing to link. The motion of censure on Ursula von der Leyen, whom I did not support for her initial nomination, was based on the issue of vaccines and Covid. In the motion of censure there was no relevance to or mention of Palestine, the appalling attacks on the Palestinian people in Gaza and the undermining of the Palestinian state in the West Bank itself. The reason I say that is I have consistently raised those issues. We have consistently pushed for motions of censure-----

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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You backed her up.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No interruptions.

Mr. Billy Kelleher:

I have backed it up every day of the week inside in the Parliament in the context of how I vote. The idea that every issue about which people disagree or about which people are very passionate would be used as a motion of censure means that we would never, ever have a Commission. We would never be able to govern, we would never be able to make decisions and we would make an absolute mockery of the European parliamentary process, but more importantly, we would be using genuine issues that I fundamentally support. I visit the occupied territories. I sponsored the occupied territories Bill inside in the Dáil. The idea that the Senator would suggest that my support for Ursula von der Leyen in the context of Covid vaccines and corruption is somehow diminishing my genuinely held beliefs on Palestine and the suffering of the Palestinian people, not just since the war but over many years, is distasteful to say the least.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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It is accurate.

Mr Seán Kelly:

Tá a lán ceisteanna curtha. Just briefly, I would agree on support for Northern Ireland in the MFF. We may not be able to get an actual figure but it is a good idea because it is something we would be anxious to see happening - hopefully the sooner the better.

On referring the Mercosur deal to court, I voted against that of course. First, I was elected to make decisions and not to be asking the court to make the decision for me. Second, it was only a ruse really to try to postpone it indefinitely and get the court to probably find some fault with it. I was the rapporteur for the EU-Singapore agreement and in 2018 that was referred to the courts. The courts found that it was perfect in terms of complying with the treaties, and it has operated since. We had it last year with the EU-Chile agreement and I would say the same will apply here. There was no reason in the world to refer that to the court as far as I am concerned and I have no hesitation in saying that if it came up again I would not vote for it to go to court. I have been elected to make decisions and I will make them myself.

I agree about the nature restoration. I stuck my neck out against the EPP on that. I was blamed for being it being passed but there was a commitment that there would be special funding outside of the CAP for the nature restoration measures and that is something we will have to fight strongly for to ensure that is done and also, of course, to keep the EIPs, the LIFE programme, etc. I would agree with that completely.

On enlargement, we have had no enlargement since 2014 when Croatia came in. It has been postponed and postponed. It is now back on the agenda, big time. Will it happen? It may. It may pick up momentum in the second half of this mandate. Ironically, Ukraine could be a stumbling block. I know it is very important for Ukraine to have the security of knowing it is going to join the European Union.Would Ukraine be ready for it post-war? Quite frankly, I do not think so.

We have to be very careful with these countries, particularly when we see what happened in the case of Hungary in particular. If we got another Orbán or two, they could disrupt the European Union completely. It will be necessary to look at some of the constraints. What I will be proposing is a kind of provisional membership for a year or two or something of that nature, but allowing them in if they cannot be put out subsequently could be detrimental. Of course, the budget has to be looked at. That is going to be a big issue in this regard.

I agree with Mr. Kelleher. I voted for Ursula von der Leyen. I will vote for her any time there is a vote of censure in the Parliament. First, she was elected by us to do a job. She has a five-year mandate. If you vote against her on the motion of censure, you are actually voting against Michael McGrath and all the other Commissioners, which is like a vote of no-confidence in the Government. The whole thing would collapse. We would have to start all over again. There would be absolute chaos. We do not agree with Ms von der Leyen on everything but - and I give credit to the Government and to the Opposition here - she got the message on Gaza, at least to a certain degree. In her most recent state of the Union address, she was far more critical of Israel and supportive of Gaza than she might have been in the past.

LNG is a disgrace. I have been working on it for 15 years. Something like €40 million or €50 million has been spent and a decision has not yet been made. It is a disgrace in the context of the whole Irish approach to things. We need energy security. We need to have gas until we develop our renewables, which we need to develop much quicker, but we do need to transition. I completely agree with Mr. McNamara on that.

Migration has been mentioned. I agree with what was said. We try to control it as best we can, but we cannot attack or find fault with any particular country.

Fishing is the one sector that has a complaint about European policy. It has suffered both historically and as a result of Brexit. We have now lost the Hague preferences, which Garrett FitzGerald got for the sector many years ago. If anyone deserves support in terms of fighting their case, it is the fishers of this country.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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What about women's rights? What about the right to our spaces? Nobody has answered the question in that regard. The right to our spaces-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I will let them come back in on that in a minute. I call Mr. McNamara.

Mr. Michael McNamara:

Maybe the Senator arrived late, but I addressed the issue in my previous contribution. I will not repeat what I said.

On Ireland's ability to defend itself, there has been a lot of talk about what we are going to do. However, our level of investment in the Defence Forces is both incredibly low and inexcusable. That said, there is a lot of discussion about it in the Irish media. I am always quite surprised about that because I have never really met anybody – it might be different for Mr. Kelleher, Mr. Kelly, Ms Funchion or Ms Ní Mhurchú – who asked when the Irish Defence Forces were going to come over the hill. I do not think anybody in Europe really cares much about it, but it is an issue for us ourselves. There is a great deal of talk in the media about it being an embarrassment to us abroad. It is an embarrassment to us here. It is an embarrassment in the context of how we treat the members of our Defence Forces who stand by the flag and who put their lives on the line for it. At European level, I am not sure that there is much of an interest, but that does not mean we should not address it. We clearly need to do so.

Senator Casey mentioned EU scrutiny. I completely agree with him. It is something that needs to be stepped up. Senator McDowell, who, unfortunately, is not here today, had something to say about it recently. I very much agree. I do not always agree with him, but I frequently do. I agree with him on the need for far greater EU scrutiny. Perhaps he and Senator Casey could get together and come up with a solution as to how it could be better scrutinised.

On the von der Leyen motions, I have abstained from them because they are votes of censure on the entire Commission. It is not just von der Leyen, it is the entire Commission, including Michael McGrath and Commissioner Jørgensen, a socialist from Denmark who is doing quite a good job on energy issues. I fundamentally disagree with the direction in which von der Leyen is bringing the European Union, but tabling motion after motion is not going to achieve anything. In a way, it is just a bit of political pantomime. If we look at the results of those motions, they are not getting anywhere. I would like to see her removed though, but that is something which will require a bit more political manoeuvring than is currently happening.

On enlargement, I very much commend Mr. Kelly on his honesty. It is rare to hear it from Irish representatives. I recommend that people read the conclusions document from the Council meeting on 18 December at which Ukraine was discussed. It was very clear that there will not be a departure from the standards. Ukraine has to meet the acquis of the European Union like every other aspirant applicant, and it is not in a position to meet that. It is, unfortunately, unlikely to be in a position to do so in the near future.

There is also a part of that which includes the use of frozen Russian assets. I recommend that people read this as well, particularly as, in my view, the reporting of it in some normally reliable mainstream media outlets was completely erroneous. The use of Russian frozen assets is as dead as the Monty Python parrot. They are based in Belgium, and the Belgians were not having it, notwithstanding the enormous pressure that Merz and von der Leyen put them under. They resisted. It is dead unless the Belgians get a guarantee that Ireland and all other member states are not prepared to provide them with.

I agree with the point about energy security. At present, our energy policy is based on importing nuclear energy from the United Kingdom and, now, from France. Both the United Kingdom and France have very ambitious plans for their own energy. We in Ireland need to grow up. Unless we cover the whole country with windmills, the idea that we can do it through wind farms alone is nonsensical unless we can develop the offshore wind sector, which is not economically viable at the moment. If it is not, then we need to look at the use of small nuclear reactors, etc.

Ms Cynthia Ní Mhurchú:

Nobody asked me a specific question. That is fine. I will just deal with the few general open questions that were asked. I will start with fishing, and the questions from Senator O'Reilly of Aontú. I will be having a public meeting with fishers in Castletownbere tomorrow. The Senator is more than welcome to attend. She should please say it to her councillors. Everybody else is more than welcome. It does not matter what party or group they are from. There will be some speakers from Europe and obviously some speakers from the Irish fishing industry. It is the most devastated industry in the country. There is no doubt about that.

If Senator Clonan wants to get in front of anybody in the EU, I am his ticket, particularly in relation to disability, because I share his concerns. I will reach out to him separately in relation to that. We should make inroads and progress on that during the Presidency. It is an ideal moment. I thank him for that.

I thank Senator Stephenson very much. Senator Casey also mentioned over-legislating and simplification. He is a bit worried about simplification leading to degradation and so forth. The old phrase which we all know is that America innovates, we legislate and then China imitates. We have got to stop legislating. We have a lot of legislation. It is like the Digital Services Act and the Digital Markets Act that I work with on the Committee on Internal Market and Consumer Protection. We now need to roll out those Acts. We need to use them and put them into effect. I take the points made by Senators Casey and Stephenson. We cannot dilute either, but we cannot overdo it. We need to pull up a little.

On the estimated cost of reunification. I would err on the side of caution and say that it might be a little presumptive and a bit too early. We recently saw an exchange that happened between a Northern Ireland politician agus Uachtarán na hÉireann. There are lots of sensitivities. That is why I would like to roll it out in a sustained – not a slow way, but in a more progressive way which does not hone in on costs initially. We have an awful lot of progress made through the North-South bodies and so forth. We need to build on that. Going back to my previous point, we do need to talk about reunification in a very collaborative way. I would really welcome that during the Presidency.

I do apologise if I left anybody out. Tá sé sin go hiontach. There are a couple of seconds left. I do want to mention the Irish language. It is an official language in the European Union. This is the first Presidency that Irish has been an official language. Guess what? There is a derogation on me speaking Irish in the Parliament. The Ministers can say it at the Council and the Commission – if anyone wants to speak it there, like Commissioner McGrath - but in the Parliament, myself and éinne eile taobh thiar ná in aice liom a labhraíonn Gaeilge agus a theastaíonn uathu Gaeilge a labhairt ag gach leibhéal de chruinniú – every level of meeting, I cannot speak it in the Parliament. Guess why? There is a derogation until 2029. I did not vote in favour of it.We have to undo it by the end of 2029. We have to get the interpretation service rolled out in the Parliament. We need to take our place. Our national language needs to be i lár an aonaigh. It is one of the most valuable commodities we have, as people and as politicians. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the MEPs for their contributions and Senators for their questions. Before I call the Leas-Chathaoirleach to give thanks on behalf of the House, I call Senator Ahearn.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I thank all the MEPs for being here today. We have seen from the debate back and forth that although people have very different views and positions, it is extremely helpful to have all five MEPs here to be able to outline their position and views and the work they are doing to represent Ireland South. Mr. Kelleher said this is a changing world. It is absolutely changing, and the EU's position and role are so critical in that.

One particular issue is the rise of the far right and how Europe, as a Continent, manages that. If we are honest with ourselves, it is not accidental. It has been planned, it is strategic and there are people behind it, whether it is Tommy Robinson in the UK or the AfD party in Germany, particularly in eastern Germany. These are organisations that are being funded by Putin and Musk. It has been well planned and managed. The European Union has a role to play in this regard. We have very important elections across Europe this year, in Armenia, Bosnia and, obviously, Hungary. Comments made yesterday by Marco Rubio endorsing Viktor Orbán were outrageous. No state should be interfering in any election but America has given its view.

Senator Clifford Lee tried to get information on why people hold their positions. When people come here, whether we agree with them or not, it is a good opportunity for them to outline their position and, in this case, for some MEPs to outline why they abstained in a vote on Iran and voted against supporting Ukraine in a financial package. People can have different views, but this is a very good platform to outline that.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, Ms Funchion did that.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Allow Senator Ahearn to continue without interruption.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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There are different perspectives on how people answer.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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The Senator could argue about MEPs voting for Ursula von der Leyen too, but we are not making a point of that.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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The Senator spoke about interrupting someone and now he is interrupting me.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for the robust debate. I ask that Senator Ahearn be allowed to continue without interruption.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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We have spoken on a range of issues but there is nothing more important at EU level at the moment than security and defence.

Mr. Michael McNamara:

The people are more important.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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When we talk about decision-making, one of the faults of the European Union is the speed of decision-making. I just came back this morning from the World Forum in Berlin where I spoke on defence and security and what allied countries can do to support Ukraine and position ourselves to support of other countries that are vulnerable. Taiwan will be an obvious country in 2027. Taiwan controls 90% of semiconductors. If it is invaded by China, it will have a massive impact throughout the world. However, a deterrent to that would be the EU and America having a position before a war starts, not afterwards. Mr. Kelleher has done an awful lot of work on Ukraine sanctions coming through, but the European Union should have had a position well before the war in Ukraine started to try to deter what happened. We are playing on the back foot after the war commenced. The European Union needs to learn the lesson that we have to hold a position in support of small countries that are very vulnerable.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I have one proposal on an issue that falls on the desk of many Senators. Would the European Union bring in a requirement that all online bookings of flights include the expiry date of passports? It might lessen the load of Members of the Oireachtas. If that is something the MEPs could investigate, many of us would get fewer phone calls every week from panicked constituents.

Mr. Billy Kelleher:

It is a great vote-getter.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Anois, I call the Leas-Chathaoirleach to conclude.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the five MEPs for their hard work and dedication since they were elected. Many have been in the European Parliament for a number of years. I thank them for coming here this evening to share their experiences and thoughts with us. They all gave a very balanced view as to what their own thoughts are and the work in which they are interested. The Presidency of the EU is going to be an exciting time for Ireland. I thank the MEPs and wish them the best of luck in the work they are doing on behalf of all of us.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Members of the European Parliament who are here. They were very gracious to give their time today. We look forward to engaging with this group of MEPs again next year, and also with MEPs from the Dublin and Midlands–North-West constituencies during this year, in the latter half of which Ireland will hold the Presidency of the European Union.