Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I would also like to welcome a very special guest. The 2025 Rose of Tralee, Katelyn Cummins, an apprentice electrician, is most welcome to Seanad Éireann, along with John Dwan, her apprentice supervisor and sponsor, and his wife Noreen, from County Laois, and Steve, director of operations for the Rose of Tralee Festival. I have known Steve for many years and he has been doing great work in Kerry. I am delighted to welcome the Rose of Tralee here as an example of apprenticeships, the challenges we face and also the solutions available. The debate will follow the normal pattern. The first contributor is the Minister of State.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Do I call the Cathaoirleach Ceann Comhairle? I am not sure. It is my first time here.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I have been called way worse than that.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I have no doubt. I thank Senators for the kind invitation to address the House. I have addressed the Seanad a few times previously, but never in my capacity as Minister of State. I have spoken on behalf of other Ministers, so it is a real privilege to be here today to address the House. Like the Cathaoirleach, I welcome most sincerely our 2025 Rose of Tralee, Katelyn Cummins, an electrical apprentice. I have met her before. She has done more for the promotion of apprenticeships than any Government programme or Ministers speaking about them because when people see what they can be they understand it could be for them. While Ms Cummins might never have thought this would happen, I want to thank her for that. It has made a real impression and difference and I know it will continue to do so.

My role here today is to outline the work under way in my Department and hear the perspectives of Senators. Apprenticeships are of real interest to many in the House. I want to place a particular emphasis on them in this debate. Equally, I am happy to deal with our new further education and training, FET strategy that is in place, the careers in construction action plan, which we launched about two weeks ago, our work in the green skills area and our action plan for construction which, as the House will be aware, is still in ongoing public consultation. If anybody wants to speak to me about any of those measures, I will try to respond to their questions.

It might seem from what I have said that we have a lot of plans, but the truth is they are a follow-up to previous plans and actions that have been taken which are in place and have been achieved. We want to examine and learn lessons from them. As a relatively new Minister of State, who has not been in the job for 12 months, it is great for me to have an opportunity to shape some of what goes into those plans.

Let us talk a little bit about apprenticeships. By combining on-the-job employer-based training with off-the-job learning, apprenticeships allow individuals to earn as they learn. They provide a proven route to valuable qualifications and sustained employment. They also enable employers to build a skilled workforce that they and the country needs. Developing and expanding the apprenticeship system is a key priority for Government. In budget 2026, an additional €79 million was provided for apprenticeship delivery, bringing the total investment to just over €410 million per annum, more than double what it was in 2020. As well as that, a further €2.5 billion was allocated to reduce costs for apprentices attending higher education, permanently lowering fees by 17% for more than 14,000 apprentices.Government investment in apprenticeship delivery is showing results. Since 2020, the year my Department was formed, there has been a 77% increase in the number of apprentices. We have moved from 19,600 to 31,165 apprentices today. It is clear that apprentices are voting with their feet because they see this as an important career pathway. The range of apprenticeships has expanded significantly, with 78 programmes now, which is nearly three times the number that existed a decade ago. That reshapes public perception and opens new pathways to qualifications that were not previously accessible. It is not just that we have more skilled apprentices; we also have an increase in the number of pathways to gain different qualifications.

In October last year I was delighted to launch the first common apprenticeship programme to be developed and delivered on an all-island basis. This apprenticeship, accounting technologist, is a strong example of productive co-operation across the island. Apprenticeships supporting construction, which is a national priority, are at the core of building capacity in the construction sector. Last month the Minister for further education, Deputy Lawless, and I launched the updated careers in construction plan. I will not go into any detail here because there is a lot in it but if anybody is interested and wants to ask me about it, they can let me know. This plan will reduce barriers to a career in construction and build pathways so that learners can view the construction industry as a place where they can have a thriving and fulfilling career. A modern methods of construction, MMC, action plan was launched last year and is being implemented at a cross-sectoral level. The plan will help to mainstream these new building techniques which will increase productivity and widen access. Again, if anybody wants more detail, I am happy to speak about it afterwards.

During my term as Minister of State I have had the pleasure of relaunching a level 4 retrofitting course with the team at St. Andrew's Resource Centre. If any Senators know that team, they will know the excellent work they do. I attended the national scaffolding apprenticeship graduation ceremony in Tullamore. I was there when they broke ground at the national demonstration park for MMC in Mount Lucas. I have visited so many companies but will mention one in my own constituency, Vision Built in Tobercurry, which manufactures 2-D and 3-D modular units and does excellent co-operative work with the local school, St. Attracta's. Again, if anybody wants to know more, I can speak about it later.

I want to mention briefly green skills and offshore wind. The availability of green skills is key to this economy's transition to a climate-resilient and climate-neutral economy. A critical development in this regard was the publication by SOLAS of the first national strategy for FET skills in the green transition, entitled Green Skills 2030. My Department is leading the skills response to Ireland's offshore wind ambitions as well as in many other areas. Again, I am happy to provide further detail later.

A core objective of my Department is to ensure that apprenticeships are both inclusive and accessible. This means that apprenticeships are for all groups, but especially for disadvantaged and under-represented groups. We have many different supports including the gender bursary programme, the access to apprenticeship initiative, and the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme. I am happy to answer questions on any of those programmes. It is also important for people to know that apprenticeships are moving into the public service. The public and civil service can play a key role in the apprenticeship system, including in supporting our goal of inclusion. The public service action plan was published in 2023 and the total apprenticeship population in the public service grew from 373 in 2022 to 566 in 2025.

We have made strong progress in growing Ireland's apprenticeship system but further work, of course, is needed. A key priority of Government is ensuring that our apprenticeship model continues to evolve in line with the needs of learners, employers and the wider economy. Pay is an important factor and I am aware that it was discussed in this House last December. I am willing to come back to the issue in my responses to the debate. It is essential that all apprenticeship programmes remain fit for purpose and continue to reflect real industry skills needs. I thank the House for the opportunity to be here. It is a real honour and privilege to share the work of my Department with this House. It is also important that I listen to what Senators have to say. I look forward to hearing their contributions and to the continued engagement that I hope will strengthen our work together.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Curaim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I thank her for coming in to the Chamber today and for taking the time to listen and engage with us on this really important topic. I commend the work being done in the Department and the work she has been leading on in the area of apprenticeships since her appointment. As a parent and the Fianna Fáil spokesperson in the Seanad on further and higher education and skills, I am very interested in this area. It has been a thrill and a real eye-opener to learn over the past year, in discussions at the Oireachtas education committee, about the very many areas that are open to young people now through the Earn and Learn model. I commend the Minister of State and her colleagues in the Department on increasing from 58 to 78, in just a short number of years, the number of different courses and qualifications available through the model across the country. All of these are being delivered in partnership with SOLAS and the ETBs.

On Saturday last I attended a career fair at my child's secondary school, Castletroy College in Limerick city. There are almost 1,500 students in the school and the careers fair was organised by the parents council. We invited local employers to come to the school, put up a stand and talk to the children in senior cycle - fourth, fifth and sixth year - about the potential roles that might be open to them when they finish school or when they are thinking about what courses they should apply for. We ran a number of panels, one of which was the Earn and Learn panel and I was delighted that there was great interest in it and a huge attendance. We had past pupils on the panel, including Fionn McInerney Garry, who is a third year apprentice electrician. He came to the school in his Snickers workwear and spoke to the children and parents about what his role involves and about his journey so far. We also had an apprentice auctioneer, James Carney from Rooney's Auctioneers in Limerick. We had a representative from Johnson and Johnson, which is a huge employer in Castletroy, with over 2,000 people going in and out of its manufacturing facility every day. A dedicated member of the company's management team is responsible for recruiting apprentices and promoting its apprenticeship programmes. There are four different engineering programmes that can be done via apprenticeship in Johnson and Johnson, with two intakes per annum of school leavers from secondary schools in the Limerick area. We also had one of the enterprise liaison managers, Ms Eimear Brophy, from the Limerick and Clare ETB on the panel. It was a really interesting discussion. We pulled the chairs into a semi-circle, parents and students asked lots of questions and it was so informative. I learned a huge amount.I was there as a parent and it was great to be looking at it from the other side of the desk. We have been examining it from the State's perspective and thinking about how the programmes are run, funding within the Department and guidance for employers on pay for apprentices. We have been thinking and learning, rightly, about all the issues around off-the-job placements and the efforts being made to match the apprentices to locations that are close to their homes to help them manage the challenges around accommodation, the cost of equipment and all those issues. To hear it from the other side, for the first time, was an eye-opener.

There is great excitement from the employers' perspective about the value of these programmes. They want to develop relationships with employees. They bring people in at the age of 18, support them to learn on the job and get their qualifications, and then, later in their careers, perhaps they will take the next step to management level, having really got to know the company over the course of their first qualification.

The students wanted to know about applying for different roles. They were surprised to hear that as an apprentice electrician, for example, you can move employer during your time in training. There are advertisements and opportunities for second- and third-year apprentices. In that way, you can broaden your experience in different areas. You might spend a couple of years in residential home-building before going into an industrial setting and specialising in something else. In Limerick, for example, huge work is ongoing at the Eli Lilly plant at the moment. Fionn McInerney Garry, who was with us, told us that he moved from the area of home-building, where perhaps 30 of them were on site every day, to Eli Lilly, where there are nearly 2,000 people on the construction site, including somewhere in the region of 400 apprentices. There is a vibrancy that goes with that and a wonderful community has been built up in the workplace for young people in training and earning and learning at the same time.

It was an eye-opener for me to have some time to listen to the different experiences of people in my region of Limerick and to have the opportunity to talk about civil engineering apprenticeships, auctioneering, landscaping, accountancy, carpentry, plumbing, electrical and the many different areas that people can go into should they decide not to follow the well-worn and perhaps more conventional path to a level 7 or level 8 qualification but instead step directly into the world of work and combine the best of both worlds with their learning and qualifications.

We have, of course, heard about many of the challenges around apprenticeships. I touched on some of them already, as the Minister of State did in her speech. Before I finish, I recognise the presence of Katelyn Cummins, the Rose of Tralee. I echo the Minister of State's comments in congratulating her on her personal achievement in becoming the Rose of Tralee and thanking her for the work she has done in making female apprenticeships much more visible. Since 2020, as the Minister of State said, we have increased the number of female apprenticeships across the country by nearly 200%. In 2020, we had 1,017 female apprentices and last year, there were 3,010. That is huge growth in a short number of years and it is thanks to the Minister of State's predecessor and the work in the Department in focusing on apprenticeships. I have no doubt that the Minister of State will continue that strong trajectory and that we will see even an higher level of female participation and participation across all sectors of society, and an increase in our numbers overall in apprenticeships in the years to come.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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Ar an gcéad dul síos, cuirim fáilte chaoin roimh an Aire Stáit atá i láthair anocht agus roimh na cuairteoirí sa Ghailearaí thall ansin.

In adverting to the people in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery, I draw attention to the blueprint for what we would see as a successful apprenticeship. It is novel in some ways. I thank Samantha Long, our capa in the Seanad Independent Group, for suggesting and organising the invitation to Katelyn to be here. We can advertise and promote apprenticeships at great expense and at some length, but when it is fixed onto a personage and a personality, and somebody who is in the limelight and is conscious of an awful lot of positive images for young people, it says more than all the money that is spent on advertising campaigns.

I am delighted not just to have Katelyn here. There are many other stories there. Steve, for example, made sure she was here tonight. She has a hectic schedule. Of course, possibly the unsung heroes of the apprenticeship are John and Noreen, who afforded Katelyn the apprenticeship. A succinct deal is done between a person who wants to enter a trade, learn and perfect it and graduate from it with high levels of qualifications.

Speaking of high levels of qualifications, a couple of years ago, I had the privilege of being the Mayor of Waterford. One of the pleasant jobs I had was that I was asked to go to the South East Technological University to confer degrees on a class of apprentices. There were approximately 80 of them and the vast majority were sparkies, electricians. If there was a small downside to the joyous occasion, it was that almost exclusively the graduates that evening were male. That tells its own story. Senator Ryan adverted to the fact that the trends are going in the right direction, from 1,000 to 3,000. In the overall context of the numbers of apprenticeships, however, we have serious questions to consider about the gender balance in apprenticeships and changing the mindset of the nation about apprenticeships. It goes back to schools. I often say, as a former teacher, that schools are far from perfect organisations. They do an awful lot of good but in the whole area of career guidance, counselling and outlining career paths for their pupils, perhaps there is a reticence in the career guidance module that does not give due credit or gravitas to the path of apprenticeships and what they can do for the economy.

I talked earlier to John, who told me that tradesmen, electricians and all sorts of people in the trades and skills sector are flying from Dublin on Sunday evening and working week on, week off and doing amazing work all around Europe. They are, in a very practical way, the new skills ambassadors for the progressive economy we have. They are saying more than the Ministers who will go abroad in a few weeks' time to tell their stories. The practical work being done by Irish skills in those economies is an unsung tale of patriotism and economic input.

Ba mhaith liom an t-éacht atá déanta ag Katelyn Cummins mar Rose of Tralee agus an jab atá á dhéanamh aici a lua. Níl mórán suime agam sa damhsa ach chuala mé ó mo bhean chéile go bhfuil Katelyn Cummins go sármhaith ag damhsa. Geallaim di go mbeidh mé ag féachaint ar an gclár an Domhnach seo chugainn.

This House is certainly not remiss. I have been in the House for only one year and one week and over the past year, we have had two evenings of debate on apprenticeships and their importance. On the most recent occasion, we were visited by the Minister, Deputy James Lawless, and this time we are joined by the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin.The Minister of State outlined the work that she and the Minister, Deputy Lawless, are doing in relation to apprenticeships and many other spheres of higher education and it is a catalogue of very impressive work. I do not often say that to Ministers who come in but it is very impressive. Deputy Harkin's heart is in the right place on this. Go n-éirí go geal léi san obair atá os a comhair.

The antithesis of this, that is, poor planning in apprenticeships, can be seen in the news from our neighbouring economy that I read last weekend. The apprenticeship module in the UK is being cut from 18 months to three. I fail to see what can be done to make an impression on apprenticeships, the economy or the skills shortage in the UK if apprenticeship programmes as short as three months are to be rolled out. The programme here can take apprenticeships to the level of a full degree, level 8, and even to levels 9 and 10. That gives status and self-esteem to people in trades that were often looked at as the laggards of the economy. There are now 78 different disciplines in the apprenticeship system. It is the model for a successful economy.

I was very pleased to hear the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, mention skills for green initiatives. From the weather we have had for the last 30 days or so, we can see the difficulties we have with the climate. We will be talking about that later, during the next debate. It is wonderful that there are apprenticeships focused on the green economy and green skill sets. Being progressive and earning a good living does not have to be about "Drill, baby, drill". It is far more likely to be about "Skills, baby, skills". That is what we are focusing on in this debate, the plenitude of skills that are being encouraged by the apprenticeship model and the enlightened message Government is sending. I sound like a Fianna Fáil representative here-----

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There is nothing wrong with that.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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-----but I am delighted to have a Minister of State here who is of the Independent persuasion. She is doing an amazing job. Long may it continue.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State and Katelyn Cummins to the Seanad tonight. I am a very proud Kerryman. I was putting together my few words for tonight. My son is in phase 5 of an electrical apprenticeship. When Ms Cummins won the coveted crown as Rose of Tralee last year, she really elevated the apprenticeship model for the female sector. The figures in that respect are very low. We will talk about that later on. It was a really proud moment for the skills sector. It really enticed ladies into apprenticeship schemes. I really hope Ms Cummins enjoys her time here, having been invited by the Chair.

Apprenticeships are one of the few areas where we have seen real tangible progress. My contribution tonight is really about the life of an apprentice, the factors that have worked against apprenticeships and how we can make them better. I refer to funding and so forth. The increase in the number of apprenticeships is really encouraging. We now have a genuine opportunity to transform the whole system. I welcome the number of 9,461 in 2025. That is a huge number and an increase of 70% on 2020.

A major turning point came in 2025 here in the Chamber when the Government finally unlocked the National Training Fund. That decision closed the core funding gap that had been holding apprenticeships back for too long. It was not just an accounting change. It was a moment when our ambitions were finally matched with resources. If we are serious about expanding apprenticeships, modernising training, supporting employers and meeting the climate and energy commitments in the programme for Government, including the SEAI targets, unlocking that fund is the key to open the door. It gives us the financial foundation to build the skilled workforce Ireland urgently needs.

However, unlocking the fund is only the beginning. We now have to use it wisely. The recommendations of the committee, which I sit proudly on, make clear where that investment must go. The system is doing good work but it needs to move faster and be more flexible and accessible if it is to meet the demands of the next decade. I will share one example that reflects what many across the country will be hearing. A 45-year-old man recently came to me. He is married, has a family and mortgage and, with a full working life already behind him, wants to retrain. He wants to start an apprenticeship in a sector that is crying out for workers but, when he looked at the rates for first and second-year apprentices and at his mortgage repayments, childcare costs and college fees, he realised he simply could not make the numbers work. He told me that he is willing to put in the work but just cannot afford to go backwards. That is the reality for a lot of people out there. If we want to bring in older workers, those changing careers, parents and people with real-world experience, people we absolutely need, apprenticeships must be financially viable for them.

As we move towards a single integrated apprenticeship model, we need to ensure that standards remain strong across every trade and every programme. Whether someone is training as an electrician, a software developer or a heat pump installer, they deserve the same level of quality and support. Curriculums must keep pace with industry, technology and green skills, which are evolving quickly. We cannot have programmes taking years to update. Streamlined development time is essential. AI upskilling has never been more relevant to the apprenticeship model and to all employers. That is something to be noted. With the benefit of the NTF, we need more instructors and more training facilities. Trades like mechanical automation and electrical are oversubscribed. These are exactly the skills we need to meet our climate and industry targets so expanded capacity is urgently needed. Thanks to the NTF, we finally have the means to achieve that. There is nothing holding us back.

The committee rightly emphasises the importance of listening to apprentices themselves. Course sequencing matters. Career skills modules make far more sense later in the programme, when apprentices have real workplace experience. If we want a system that works for everyone, universal design must be built in from the start. People with disabilities should not just be consulted at the end. They should be shaping programmes from day one. Pathways like those offered by the National Learning Network should be highlighted and expanded.

Financial barriers still remain one of the biggest obstacles. An increased minimum wage, the removal of student charges and targeted supports for parents, older apprentices and those with dependants would make a real difference. Even the cost of tools can be a dealbreaker. That should not be happening in a modern society. People like the 45-year-old father I mentioned who have families, mortgages and responsibilities are being locked out of apprenticeship programmes. These are people who want to contribute, to retrain and to be part of the workforce that will deliver our climate and energy transition. We cannot afford to lose them.

On apprenticeship tools, it is hugely important that the Fine Gael Senator PJ Murphy, who is not here right now, gets the full support of this House on his proposed tool theft Bill, which is to come before the Seanad next week. The Bill recognises that, when tools are stolen, it is not just equipment that is taken, but a person's ability to train, work and progress. The Bill would amend the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 to create a mandatory minimum three-year custodial sentence for serious theft offences involving work tools or equipment from all apprentices where the theft prevents someone from learning their trade. Senator Murphy has highlighted the real financial and professional damage caused when tradespeople, electricians, plumbers, carpenters and sole traders have tools stolen. He has received strong support from across the trades and from apprentices, who often invest heavily in their first set of tools and rely on them to complete their on-job training. These thefts can halt their progress instantly.The Bill sends a clear message that stealing the tools of someone's trade is stealing his or her income, training and future. This Bill will represent an important step in protecting both qualified tradespeople and the next generation coming through the apprenticeship programme. Employers, especially at SMEs, need support too. When apprentices are off the job for training it can place real strain on small businesses. Targeted financial supports will help keep them engaged. We also need stronger sectoral bodies to co-ordinate employer involvement. The Insurance Institute model shows what is possible when an industry takes ownership of its skills pipeline. The public sector must lead by example. Social value procurement in public tenders would drive apprenticeship participation across the State. We also have to tackle the stigma that still surrounds apprenticeships. I am delighted that Katelyn is in our company tonight. In past times too many people saw them as the lesser option. A national campaign will help to shift that mindset, and that mindset is shifting. Elevating four-year craft apprenticeships to level 7 will send a strong signal about their value. Career guidance in schools needs to be viewed and reviewed, and apprenticeships should be presented as a real and equal option. As has been quoted, we need to mind our next generation of millionaires, to focus on them and deliver on them.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I am a member of the Joint Committee on Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, which is quite a long name. Quite a number of us in this House are members. We have been focusing on apprenticeships for the past few months and we are in the process of publishing a report. It should be published very soon. We were examining what we could do to improve the lives of our apprentices and the apprenticeship model in Ireland. In that process we met with a lot of different people. We met with employers. We met with ETBs and SOLAS. We met with unions. However, the most important voice in all of that is the voice of the apprentice. The issue for a lot of apprentices when they are taken on, particularly in the first couple of years, is the very poor rates of pay. Apprentices who presented at the committee and those I have spoken to at home in Cavan are suggesting €7 or €8.50 per hour for the second year. I was speaking to one lad. After he finished school he did a particular job or course for a few years, and then at 23 he decided to do an electrician course. He went back to earning €7 per hour. I know the rate will increase as time goes by. I know when he is qualified he will be able to charge a high rate because plumbers and electricians are like hen's teeth. You cannot get them. We need to treat our apprentices better because they are older. An employer told me at the weekend that the average age of an apprentice is 25. They are coming in older. Many of them have families. They may have a mortgage or may be renting. We need to look at some targeted financial supports for people in those positions. The option to choose where to do the off-the-job training is not given. We were looking at some sort of ranking preference where people could choose where they might want to go, and if that is not possible, they should get additional financial supports. For example, I am from Cavan. If people are doing their off-the-job training in Dundalk, Sligo or Athlone they can travel to that place every day. However, if they have to do their off-the-job training in Waterford or Cork, that is not possible. They may end up paying double rent. They are paying the rent or mortgage where they live and then they are paying rent for the few months they are away as well. Another matter is tools or equipment. Some employers are in a position to provide the tools or equipment. Bus Éireann, for example, was before the committee. It provides tools for its apprentice mechanics. Not all employers are in a position to do that. A grant for tools and equipment should be made available for those who find it a barrier to their participation.

We need to create positive awareness of apprenticeships and promote examples of success. Katelyn is welcome and she is a huge success. She has done more for apprenticeships and for female participation in apprenticeships than any of us talking tonight or in previous months. By the way, she is an excellent dancer, and I wish her the best of luck on "Dancing with the Stars." We need to promote stories like that, so we encourage young people to take them up. Our career guidance is curtailed. We need increased hours in career guidance at second level. We also need our career guidance teachers to promote apprenticeships as much as they promote other third level options to our students. My son is doing his leaving certificate at the moment and his career guidance teacher has not talked to him about apprenticeships. I asked him. Anything he has heard about it is from me when he is considering different options he can take up after school. We need to see a lot more done at second level.

The Minister of State mentioned the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme. It is a pilot programme. I hope there are plans to make this a permanent programme, and to make sure there is long-term sustainable funding put in place to support this programme. Providing bursaries for Travellers has encouraged and increased the number of Travellers taking part. There also needs to be a link to employers for Travellers and people from other disadvantaged backgrounds, or even from rural backgrounds where there are not a lot of employers in the locality in a position to take on apprenticeships. Young people may not know who to reach out to, to get an apprenticeship. If we can put in links to employers as well it would be helpful. People with additional needs have a low representation among people taking up apprenticeships. The National Learning Network could not provide an inclusive pathway to an apprenticeship. More pre-apprenticeship places need to be made available because they are oversubscribed at the moment, and they help people from disadvantaged backgrounds to progress to an apprenticeship. All information about apprenticeships needs to be provided in an accessible way for people with learning difficulties or a disability.

The curriculum needs to be adaptable to keep up with changes in modern technology and to align with what apprentices are actually doing in the on-the-job phases. We need to expand facilities and increase the number of teachers or instructors we have. There is a waiting list in certain areas for off-the-job training and people end up spending longer than they should doing their apprenticeship. It should be four years, and they may be spending five or six years.

The North has a social value procurement model, which is worth considering here as well. The committee discussed how public sector participation in apprenticeships should be mandated, with targets set for under-represented groups within that. There is 10% sectional scoring in the public sector on the basis of gender, social class and people from different areas of discrimination to encourage more to be included and taken on as apprentices in the public sector. We discussed other issues such as better support for small and medium enterprises to take on apprentices and better co-operation between the National Apprenticeship Office, SOLAS and the ETBs to avoid duplication and confusion. We mentioned a central application system for apprenticeships similar to the CAO to make it easier for people of any age to progress into an apprenticeship and find out all the information.

A Cavan-based company, Celtic Working Platforms Limited is involved in scaffolding. It won the small employers award at the 2025 apprenticeship employer of the year awards in December. I congratulate the company and acknowledge what it has done. Scaffolding only became an apprenticeship in 2021. I acknowledge the work this company has done employing young people and people of all ages to take up scaffolding. It is something that requires training because it can be dangerous. I am delighted and welcome that it is now an apprenticeship.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I understand Senators Cosgrove and Harmon are sharing time with five minutes and three minutes each. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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The Minister of State is from my constituency, and I know the hard work she does. She has to be commended. We have met on many occasions in our own ETBs. I know the work she does in the area, and it is well recognised. Katelyn is also welcome. It is great to see more women on apprenticeships. That is what we need. I raise the issue of apprentice pay. People know I brought forward a Bill before Christmas, which would make it compulsory that apprentices be included under the national minimum wage Bill. I was disappointed that it was not supported in any way by the Government and that it was not even given a timed amendment because we did not just draft it on a whim.We put a lot of work into it and there was a lot of consultation with different representative bodies, from Connect Trade Union to the Irish Council of Trade Unions, to SIPTU, to the National Youth Council. There have been great strides and there has been more uptake of apprenticeships, which is absolutely commendable and wonderful to see. Unfortunately, however, there is still an issue that 20% to 25% of people are dropping out - I am talking about craft apprenticeships - in their first year. This is what came-----

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Which?

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Craft apprenticeships. Connect Trade Union has told me that 20% to 25% of first-years in craft apprenticeships have been leaving. It has cited low pay as the reason. These are representative bodies that have said this to me. We know that apprentices receive a huge amount of support from the educational side. I know that myself from working in Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board, MSLETB. I worked in the Sligo training centre. I was based there. The first-year apprentices have said - and this has come up already - that they are receiving as little as €7.67 per hour in their first year, which rises to €11.50 in their second year. As has been said here already, if people are living in one area and doing their apprenticeship in another, they are expected to pay double rent, expected to feed themselves and expected to pay for tools, and people do not have the bank of Mam and Dad to rely on. I know there have been strides in that there will be a more inclusive model but, unfortunately, the minimum wage is a massive issue.

I know Ben Friel. He is the president of the National Union of Students-Union of Students in Ireland. He addressed the Oireachtas joint committee on further education and pointed out that apprentice electricians are expected to possess a basic electrician's toolkit costing a thousand euro. I know there is a Bill about that coming up. In addition, it has come up with me that female workers, particularly hairdressers, unlike their male counterparts in construction, maybe, do not even get an incremental rate of pay. Maybe 25 years ago, when the minimum wage legislation was introduced, that was okay in that possibly the reason behind it was to keep 16-year-olds in school. As has come up here many times tonight, however, the average age in craft apprenticeships now is 23, and in hospitality, horticulture and food it is actually 30. Like Senator Kennelly said, we know that this is common sense and that people have mortgages, so it does not make sense that they are exempt in their first and second years. We know we are at a time when we need to keep apprenticeships. The Minister of State has spoken about wonderful initiatives about retrofitting and improvements. I know that in my own area. Unfortunately, however, if people within the construction sector, the housing sector and craft apprenticeships are dropping out in their first year, I do not know how we will meet our climate targets or how we are to be expected to build the number of houses we want to build. There is the Oireachtas committee on higher education, of which many people here are members, and I know that a report will be published, but will minimum wage for apprenticeships be included in that? Will a basic minimum wage for first-year and second-year apprenticeships be included in that? When is the publication date coming out?

I know we have made huge strides on this, and the Minister of State has to be commended on that, but we need to do more to ensure that first-year apprentices are not dropping out.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I welcome the guests in the Gallery and thanks and congratulations to Katelyn Cummins for all the work she does. She is a real ambassador for people in trades and apprenticeships. I myself am the daughter of a carpenter, so this issue is close to my heart as well. It goes without saying that we have to improve the diversity in terms of those taking up apprenticeships, not just in terms of gender but in terms of different abilities and those from different backgrounds. We know in Ireland that we are 20% below the EU average in terms of employment for people with disabilities, for example. There is certainly an opportunity here to get more disabled people involved in apprenticeships. Pay is certainly part of this. Pay and conditions and supports have to be key in this regard.

I will draw attention specifically to one social enterprise in Ballinlough, Cork, that I visited recently. It is called Deaf Enterprises. I visited it with Councillor Peter Horgan and Councillor Ciara O'Connor, who are working with me in the Labour Party. It was one of my favourite places I have ever visited. I saw the work it does. It is the biggest employer of people who are deaf or hard of hearing in Ireland and it does incredible work restoring furniture and reupholstering. In the past five years it has done up over 1,200 bicycles. It is a real hub of learning. It provides employment for people. They pointed out to me that we should look at Vienna, that there is a place in Vienna called Wien Work that provides 800 apprenticeship places over a four-year period. Under the one roof it has 11 trades and it is very much focused on building and construction - brickwork, plastering, joinery, electrical - and they very much encouraged us to look towards that model. I was just very struck by that particular social enterprise, Deaf Enterprises in Cork, and I thank Steve Flint and Claire O'Mahony for showing me around the vicinity. I know they have been engaging with the Government on it, but I absolutely encourage the Minister and the Minister of State to visit the site because I thought it was absolutely incredible just to see it. It was a hub of learning and of inclusivity, providing employment for people and employment for trainers. That is an area that can certainly be looked at.

We need to move away from this idea that the gold standard is to go to university, a technological university or whatever it might be. It is about people fulfilling their full potential in life and pursuing their skills regardless of whether it is in academia, working in the trades, the arts or whatever it may be. We absolutely have to encourage more people into apprenticeships and promote it as a pathway. We need these skills. Certainly, in terms of construction, this is vital.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I also welcome our guests in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery and welcome the Minister of State. I think the last time I met her was when I was doing the whistle-stop tour of Ireland for the Seanad election and I stayed, while in the north west, in Sligo Park Hotel. She came in and she was working and it was late at night. I was there passing through and she was there working. I got here anyway. That is probably a bigger achievement for me. She was already here at that stage. I thank her and welcome her here this evening.

I am like many others, I think everybody who has spoken so far, on the committee. We have done our report on apprenticeships, we have put in hours and hours of deliberations and we have a list of recommendations in our draft report. I think most people here went to those recommendations when they were doing their homework for today because I have them all, or most of them, here in front of me and they have all been mentioned by others. Some of them are important enough to rehash.

I am of a vintage where apprenticeships were a big thing. You did your junior cert, or inter cert, as it was called at the time, and then you went off and did an apprenticeship. You served your time, hands-on on the job, and you will never learn anything like you will hands-on in any trade or any skill in life. However, then, of course, we had to better ourselves, or we thought we were bettering ourselves, and we gradually worked our way to a point where nearly everybody had to go to university and we left the trades, the apprenticeships and that earn-as-you-learn scenario behind us. We now have worked our way right back around and proven to ourselves, which we have to do on so many occasions, that the betterment was not that at all, that we actually had it right at the start. I am delighted to see that we are now going back to more and more of an earn-as-you-learn scenario. To hear the Minister of State say there are 78 programmes is unbelievable, and there is such a diversity.

Where the real problem for us as educators to overcome will be is with the ones who have the fine skills where there will be very few jobs but we still have to train people. Because I have a love of horses, I think of the likes of training farriers. That has to be an apprenticeship. There has to be somebody prepared to take on the apprentice and somewhere they can go then to do the learning side of it while, at the end of the day, there will not be that many vacancies for qualified farriers in the country. I am just using that as one example. Another example I use where there is a major challenge for us is in the evolving modern technologies. You could go off to become a blocklayer a few years ago with your bag on your back, with a trowel, a lump hammer, a spirit level, a tape and a role of string in it, and you would become a blocklayer. Now you will need access, in my opinion, to 3D printers. As these technologies evolve, we need to be in a position, as soon as they become available, to train people and let people serve their time on how to use and operate them.The companies that are developing the technologies probably have a huge role to play in training operators and skilled workers to operate the new technologies.

We need a lot more emphasis in second level education on career guidance teachers, as we used to call them, or counsellors, to promote apprenticeships. I welcomed the announcement of the Minister, Deputy Lawless, of the all-island accounting technologist apprenticeship, which the Minister of State mentioned. I am of that generation where apprenticeships are associated with blocklayers, bricklayers and electricians, but now we have accounting technologists. That this is one of the first moves on an all-island basis is ideal and brilliant to hear. It can only become more successful and I hope we will have more and more all-island initiatives such as this.

In that regard, when we are designing and formulating our qualifications, one of the big things is to have international recognition, whereby we would recognise the apprenticeships of other countries and ours would be recognised by theirs. The world is a lot smaller now and people do a lot more travelling. International recognition is an important part. It is one of our recommendations in the report I mentioned. It is vital that apprenticeships be upgraded from level 6 to level 7 on the national framework of qualifications. That would give a lot more parity of esteem with the other alternatives of education.

A long time ago, I spent some time in the education sector. I am a qualified metalwork teacher. As a councillor, I chaired the Longford-Westmeath Education and Training Board. I trained in Thomond College, which is now part of the University of Limerick. It does not exist any more, but it was a specific metalwork teacher training course. I did my leaving certificate in June and July, I went to college in October and the following February I was on four weeks' teacher training practice, standing in front of a classroom. This was six months, or a little more, after I had been on the other side of the desk in the classroom. While daunting at the time, it was hands-on working and being with fellow professionals in the staff room. I learned more in that staff room in those four weeks of the teacher practice and in the hands-on scenario than I ever learned from lectures or books. It is no different in any other trade. It is not just the skills; it is the people you are learning the skills with. Even if it is only the craic with the lads on the site, you still are actually learning. I am glad to see the apprenticeship back and long may it continue to improve and prosper.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State is very welcome to the House this evening. I had been looking for this debate for some time so I welcome the opportunity. Senator Daly mentioned his baptism of fire in metalwork. I have to compare that to my introduction to the Seanad.

Two weeks ago, I was at the launch of a showcase for an electric vehicle maintenance skills course and a wind turbine trainee programme, which has been running in Roscommon, funded by the EU just transition fund. That is exactly what that fund was created to do, namely, to create those employment opportunities for people in those areas. Last Friday, I was invited to attend the Galway-Roscommon Education and Training Board launch of a bursary for construction by the Ballymore property group. I know the Minister of State sent her apologies to that. It was created to support the development of construction skills. The CEO of Ballymore, Mr. Sean Mulryan, a native of Roscommon, came down. He is making a sizable donation over the next five years to that sector. He spoke at the event about going on a blocklaying apprenticeship with AnCO, which he was lucky enough to get back in the day. He received a stipend of £2.50 per week and his accommodation at £7.50 was paid for as well, so £10 is what was there. That this gentleman is now putting €500,000 into apprenticeships over the next five years just shows how an investment in that sector can pay multiples back into our society.

Previous speakers spoke about capacity building and the need for more trainers. I would like to talk about the delivery of these training places where they are needed most. It is great to have Katelyn here today as a flag bearer for female apprentices. Congratulations. I did not recognise you from the dancing on Sunday night. You have less make-up on this evening. Congratulations on that show too. From the findings of the national survey of apprentices that was launched in September, we know that 8% of apprentices at the moment are female. We also know that 24% of the apprentices are between the ages of 23 and 30, and nearly 13% of them are above that age. I think that one of the barriers to a lot of older people going into apprenticeships is having to travel for their training facilities and having to go to these urban areas. Previous speakers mentioned the money that is available for apprentices, but the cost of actually going into these urban areas and paying for accommodation is not easy for these people. It is especially a barrier for older women leaving home. Maybe this is something we need to really look at.

When the Minister, Deputy Lawless, was in this Chamber for the two previous conversations, I was crying out to him for an apprenticeship centre in Roscommon. It is great to have these small initiatives that are delivering, but the Galway-Roscommon Education and Training Board is crying out for this and has been presenting for the last five years an opportunity to deliver these skills in a place like Roscommon. Giving apprentice trainees the opportunity to drive against the flow of traffic from these urban areas and probably stay at home and actually do their training in the locality is something we need to look. I believe there are three or four counties left in the country that do not have a dedicated apprenticeship training centre. We are one of them. I know the Minister of State is in a neighbouring county so she would be happy someday to visit us in Roscommon and look at the opportunity and maybe meet with the ETB in relation to that.

The reason we have to focus so much on delivering these apprenticeships where they are needed most is that we have introduced policies and strategies that have created the demand for these places. We have committed to major programmes around infrastructure, housing delivery, house adaptation and retrofitting, yet an awful lot of people who are entitled to access some of those schemes such as house adaptation or retrofitting are facing delays of 12 to 24 months, not because of a lack of funding but a because of a lack of the people to actually do these jobs. I welcome the fact the Minister of State has said she will engage.

Before I finish up, I need to mention FÁS and CERT, two flag bearers for apprenticeships that we had in the past. The Minister of State would have been very familiar with them in Sligo. These entities were allowed to shut down or be wound up ibut they served a serious purpose. It was something that we were recognised internationally for, especially in the case of CERT for the hospitality skills. That was wound up in 2003, as far as I know. There is a huge demand for chefs, bar staff and other hospitality staff and a vehicle like CERT is needed.

We need to deliver the training places where they are needed most, potentially in rural areas. I would welcome further engagement on that.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for being here today. I welcome the chance to speak on apprenticeships. They can be very positive. However, as my colleague Senator Tully has mentioned, there are issues regarding wages, reimbursement and the allowances for buying tools. Ireland could lead the way because it is not just about skills or the training programmes. It is also about opportunity. Senator Scahill mentioned my neighbour Sean Mulryan. He comes from Roscommon but lives beside me in Kildare. He is an example of what can be achieved when we invest in the right programmes. The mention of AnCO brought back memories.

I also want to acknowledge the Rose of Tralee, Katelyn Cummins. Even her being part of the apprenticeship programme shows leadership. It also motivates other young women. Her employer, John Dwan, is here along with his wife Noreen and the operations director of the Rose of Tralee, Steve Crowley. They are going to buy me dinner after the debate. It is wonderful to have them all here today.What matters about the apprenticeship scheme is that it is not seen as a second option anymore. It used to be the poorer cousin, and if a person did not go to university, he or she did an apprenticeship. Now it seems everybody is taking the university pathway, whereas to get an apprenticeship is the gold ticket. I helped co-found a charity called Tiglin, which works with people who are marginalised. From my own experience in working with communities, what I have seen through the social enterprises that we have set up is that apprenticeships can turn lives around. That can be for people who have been marginalised or who have struggled with education or unemployment, and it helps them to find their feet again with real, structured training programmes and not handouts. It definitely turns their lives around.

I know from my own experience of apprenticeship schemes that they are full of people who want to work and to belong, and apprenticeships give that pathway. If we look across the country, social enterprises are doing incredible work and providing safe, supportive environments where people can learn skills and rebuild confidence as they re-enter the workplace with purpose, but they cannot do that on goodwill alone. Apprenticeship programmes can be fully integrated into the national system using social enterprises. There is huge potential there that is not realised. If we are serious about inclusion, apprenticeships have to be across the board, not only for adults, but also school leavers and vice versa. Second chances do matter, but we also need to be honest about where the country is at. I am on the housing committee, and we have been debating housing supply. We have targets, plans and strategies but plans will not build the homes. We need skilled people with an emphasis on more electricians, plumbers, carpenters and bricklayers. If we want houses built, it is essential that we first deliver the workforce to deliver the houses. That means expanding the apprenticeship places, giving certainty around funding, and strengthening the partnerships between the Government, industry and community organisations. It also means changing the narrative.

Apprenticeships are no longer a fallback. They are a solid, respected, well-paid career path. Well-paid is up for debate, and we need to focus on that. Apprenticeships do not just build workers. They build confidence and communities, and ultimately that will build a fairer Ireland. We need to make sure everyone, regardless of background, age, etc, gets the chance to work, learn and thrive.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I have three speakers left and we have only nine minutes. If I give them three minutes each, is that agreed? Agreed. I call Senator Rabbitte.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for being in the House this evening and for the opportunity to speak on apprenticeships. As the mother of a son who has qualified with his degree after receiving it through an apprenticeship in finance and insurance through Atlantic Technological University Sligo, it has been an absolutely fantastic opportunity, and I cannot praise it highly enough. The opportunity was as a Covid child of the leaving certificate, who actually said to me at one stage, “I am a sprint finisher, mother”, which meant he did not have enough done when they were doing the grades at the time. This meant he might not have got what he wanted. He went through the college system because he was told he had to do it by his mother, and by Christmas he said it was not working out. What he did have was the opportunity to partake in the apprenticeship and to work in finance and insurance, and it has paid dividends. He managed to earn and learn all the way through it and sustain himself while in college. It gave him that opportunity for independence and build confidence as a person who had to take a second chance.

When I talk about second chances in the time that is left to me, there is also wonderful work going on in relation to social work, with the HSE and Tusla, where we have people with the lived experience able to partake in social care and bring their knowledge of the care system and what it is like to be in foster care to engage with young people at their level. Expansion of what is being delivered at the moment through UCC right across the country would be really welcome. It is fantastic to have the Rose of Tralee here tonight, who has been an ambassador not only for women, but women in apprenticeships. I really welcome that. It was wonderful on the night of her interview that she was able to talk so openly and fondly about her role and how she got into it. We need more ambassadors like that who can promote the role of apprenticeships.

I agree with Senator Scahill that we need to bring apprenticeships into every parish and every community where there are ETBs, and where we can ensure access to education. When we look at housing and the cost of transport, we need to ensure we are market-ready for the next steps. I have no doubt, through the Minister of State’s good leadership and with the office and the team behind him, having secured €76 million in the latest budget and having apprenticeships front and centre, meeting sectoral demands, that is where we will drive innovation and keep our youth at home. Doing an apprenticeship means that these young people are innovators as well. They are agile and willing to change. We need to show that mainstreaming all children one way gives us one result. We need to be open and versatile, and that is what the Minister of State’s good office does.

Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge our guests in the Gallery, in particular the 2025 Rose of Tralee. She is most welcome here this evening. Her story serves as an inspiration for so many people across the country who are currently considering going down the apprenticeship route.

Being from Wexford, I highlight the important work the South East Technological University, SETU, does there and in the south-east. Indecon recently completed a report, which showed that 37% of the people who take up college courses through the SETU continue to work and remain in the area immediately, rather than what we have at the moment, which is a persistent brain drain of people leaving County Wexford and moving to Dublin, Waterford, or perhaps further afield. They go to third level and do not come back. This persistent issue has affected County Wexford over many generations. I particularly highlight the very important need for a designated campus at the SETU in Wexford. There is a 48.5 acre site secured at Ballynagee in Wexford town. I visited it about seven weeks ago with the Minister, Deputy Lawless.

What we really need to see, and this is so important for future growth in the region and county, is the master plan being delivered and prioritised and the process being sped up a bit. This is a project that has been discussed for too many years. We need to see planning permission being applied for, tenders going out and construction on that site. The uniqueness about this project is that the 48.5 acres will not only host the SETU designated campus, but it will also be home to a designated campus for the WWETB. While we are discussing apprenticeships, which would be a real driver for housebuilding and for so many people and careers in Wexford, we have to get to grips with the reality of this, which is that it has dragged on for too many years. I ask that the Minister work hand in hand with the SETU, the WWETB and Wexford County Council, to ensure that this project gets the priority it needs and is actually delivered, and that we are not having to wait as the different steps drag.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests from Cavan. They are guests of Deputy Smith. I hope they enjoy their evening.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I had better welcome the guests from Cavan here this evening. They are all very welcome.

This Department is doing marvellous work. It is a brand new Department, at only five years old. We have to remember that. I recall when the Minister, Deputy Harris came in here, when he first started the Department back in July 2020. I said to him that with a stroke of a pen he could create thousands of jobs. I encouraged him to go out and set up apprenticeships within the public service and that is exactly what he has done. I am glad that today we have 566 apprenticeships because of that idea. Progress has been made, but these are pockets of innovation. The reality on the ground is that momentum elsewhere remains quite slow. Uptake has increased, and that is welcome, but let us be honest with ourselves, only an estimated 5% of our school leavers entered apprenticeships, while England is already at 10% and Germany stands at an extraordinary 45%.That comparison alone should set alarm bells ringing. A lots is done, but we have a lot more to do. I asked the Government directly what concrete actions can be taken to boost uptake and what the strategic plan is to integrate apprenticeships into sectors where Ireland should already be leading, such as our tech industry, advanced manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, the semiconductor sector, engineering and biotech. These areas rely on precision skills. They rely on a workforce trained not only in theory but in practice. Industrial development is not solely a question of tax incentives or attracting foreign capital. It is fundamentally about building technical capacity within our own population, ensuring that Irish workers, our young people, have the skills to shape and sustain the industries we hope to grow. More broadly, we also need a national cultural shift in how we speak about the value of apprenticeships. The Government has a significant role to play in this. I am delighted to see Ms Katelyn Cummins here today to champion women in apprenticeships. Many young people around this country are doing well in apprenticeships. A young man in my town left school after the junior certificate with a great result in mathematics. He left school qualified, as did a number of people at the time. At 22 years of age he bought his house. He left school at 16. I want to give him a big shout out here today.

What concrete measures and actions can be taken to boost uptake? What is the strategic plan to integrate apprenticeships into sectors where Ireland should already be leading, such as our tech industry, advanced manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, the semiconductor sector, engineering and biotech? These areas rely on precision skills and a workforce trained not only in theory but in practice. Industrial development is not solely a question of tax incentives or attracting foreign capital; it is fundamentally about building technical capacity within our population and ensuring Irish workers, our young people, have the skills to shape and sustain the industries we hope to grow. More broadly, we urgently need a national, cultural shift in how we speak about the value of apprenticeships. The Government has a significant role to play here, and I am delighted to see Katelyn here today to champion women in apprenticeships. Many young people around this country are doing so well in apprenticeships. One young man in my town did the junior certificate, got a great result in maths and then left school, as a number of people did at the time, qualified. Now, at 22 years of age, he has bought a house. He left school at 16. I want to give him a big shoutout here today.

I would take every opportunity to encourage young people, men and women, to explore apprenticeships routes. They offer dignity, experience and lifetime careers. However, without a strong national message and strong Government action, we will continue to underserve thousands of talented young people who would thrive in these pathways. It is time for Ireland to match its rhetoric with ambition. Our young people deserve nothing less.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator and call on the Minister of State.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I have heard a lot of contributions and I have been scribbling notes. I do not know how much sense they will make. I have a closing speech prepared but I am not even going to look at that. I will just try to respond as best I can to some of the points that were made.

Senator Dee Ryan spoke about the importance of earn-as-you-learn and peer-to-peer engagement so that young people can get a real sense of what apprenticeships are about. She stated that employers are interested in investing in apprentices and looking after them because they are going to be their workers. They need to keep those workers. She also mentioned how apprentices can move to a different employer, which is something we need to look at as well.

Senator Joe Conway talked about the importance of advertising and promoting the positive image of apprenticeships to tell a story such as that which Katelyn tells or some others in the building heroes programme. That is worth 100 ministers because nobody is going to listen to a middle-aged Minister of State talking about the value of apprenticeships. I am being kind to myself when I say that, but that is the truth of it, they are not. However, they will listen to their peers. They will listen to people they know and look up to. That area is important in order to get those people to talk about the challenges, yes, but also the benefits of apprenticeships. Senator Conway talked about how this Department has delivered. I am just under 12 months in the job. It is great to come into a Department where there are good, positive vibes, good work going on and I can surf on the wave of it for a little while. I am delighted to be able to do that. As I said earlier, a lot of plans are being put in place, with a lot of reading, assessments and reviewing. We are asking what we can do bette, what mistakes we have made and what more we can do. All of that is happening and it gives a great chance to all the stakeholders and my senior Minister and me to influence what is going on.

Senator Conway also mentioned green skills. A great deal of work is happening around modern methods of contruction, new technologies and what they call nearly zero energy building, NZEB. We are trying to embed sustainability and carbon management modules into continuous programmes. It is not about doing a bit here and a bit there; it is about embedding all of that through the programmes. I made so many notes about the circular economy, bioeconomy and carbon accounting. It is happening and that is important.

Senator Mike Kennelly talked about the importance of women in apprenticeships. He also talked about the 45-year-old man who wanted to upskill and the cost to career changers. That is a good point because we have specific supports in place for certain groups of people. Perhaps that is something we need to look at for specific groups. If the Senator wants to come back to me about that, while I am not promising anything, it is certainly worth looking at. He also spoke about accessibility and the importance of embedding universal design in our systems.

Senator Tully spoke about the support for the Traveller apprenticeships pilot programme. It is a very good pilot programme, but the Senator is right. We need to make sure it remains there because it is needed. We will not reach critical mass with this pilot programme. We will certainly need it to continue it. The Senator also talked about funding for students with a disability. A fund has been put in place for students with disability who are attending courses in higher education. That is phases 4 and 6 of some of the apprenticeships. The next action plan for apprenticeships remains a priority for the Government. The closing date for consultation on that is 15 February. It has been open for quite a while. We want to consider how to promote participation on a wider scale. I think the Senator also mentioned public sector participation, which has seen a fourfold increase in apprenticeships. In truth, it started at a low level, so we still have a way to go. She talked about central applications such as the CAO. That has been discussed at many meetings and we are trying to find a way.

Senator Cosgrove spoke about the dropout rate. That was the only time I looked around to my advisers. Certainly, from the information I have seen, the rate seems to be 10% or 11% on average. That is actually much lower than in higher education. Nonetheless, the Senator is right in that we need to look at it. It is too high.

I will not give the detail of our position on the minimum wage because Members probably heard that before. I can say that when we look at the value of the apprenticeship model, that the highest median earnings for apprentices, for example two years after qualifying, were in the fields of engineering, at over €50,000 per annum. When apprentices qualify, they do command decent wages. However, I recognise it is not simple. All I can say is the numbers are increasing and apprentices seem to think doing it is worth their while, although we are not without considering it.

I heard what Senator Harmon said about the deaf enterprise. She might want to speak to me afterwards. I was only in Cork two or three weeks ago but I never refuse an excuse to visit Cork. I would certainly be interested in going there.

Senator Paul Daly talked about niche skills such as farriers. We need to make sure we look at that and keep those skills in place. He is right; the expertise will only be in one area. As technologies evolve, we need to train people and be agile, and it is about hands-on and earn-as-you-learn. The Senator knows what he is talking about

In regard to Senator Scahill, I do not know what his baptism of fire was, but good luck with that. He talked about various things, such as the electrical maintenance skills and wind turbine skills programmes in Roscommon. He spoke about Ballymore Property. I was disappointed I could not be there last Friday. I had intended to be but I had another commitment in my diary. It is really something for somebody to give that kind of money. Anyone who was born or educated in Roscommon or lives there can qualify and get a certain sum to enable them to enter an apprenticeship. Senator McCarthy is absolutely right when he says that apprenticeships cannot be seen as the poor relation. We are trying to make sure that does not happen. He had a lot more there; I will come back to him again.

Senator Rabbitte has been looking for a meeting with me for several weeks. We have finally scheduled for next week to hear about the good news story she has to tell but, equally, there is more we can do. I will be happy to listen to her then.

Senator Cathal Byrne raised the important work of SETU. It is really interesting that 37% of the people who take courses remain there. That is really important from the aspect of balanced regional development.

Senator Keogan talked about how the Department is making progress. She told us, and she is right, that compared to some other countries, we have a long way to go. We are doing a certain number of things from monitoring, evaluation, research and learning skills to what schools are doing with transition year students to try to encourage visibility of apprenticeships and ensure that people see the value of them.

I am finished, I hope. I thank Senators so much for their contributions. There are some good ideas. If anybody wants to speak to me at any time, I am willing to listen. There are no promises on what can be delivered, but at least I am willing to listen. I thank everyone for their thoughtful contributions.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State and her officials for being here this evening for this all-important debate. I welcome Katelyn and our guests on my left in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery.