Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senators Kelleher, Andrews, Joe O’Reilly, Keoghan, Brady, Craughwell and Rabbitte have indicated. In order to facilitate everyone, I ask that Senators keep their contributions to about two minutes each. I call Senator Kelleher.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will we get an opportunity to come back?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Black will reply to the debate. Under Standing Orders, only the proposer can come back.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can I come back on the incorrect comments that the previous-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. Every Senator, except the proposer, gets to make one contribution.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can I correct the record then?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the Senator’s point of order?

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, I just wish to correct the record. My mother used to say that even the best in class can make mistakes. The Senator was right. I made a mistake. It was an increase of 2%. County councillors now get €29,000. If you look at that in the context of the cost of living, then county councillors have been cut by 6%. I would like to thank the Senator for giving women councillors maternity leave. Thank you, Senator. You are very good.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a point of order. I call Senator Kelleher.

Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit as ucht teacht isteach sa Teach chun an rún a phlé.

On the correction made by Senator Flynn, the amount involved is actually in excess of €31,000, as the Minister of State indicated.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it is €28,000.

Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is €31,000. Senator Flynn began her initial contribution by saying she felt she understood the role of a councillor better than anybody else in this Chamber and that she admired the courage of those who put their names forward in local elections, which she did not do. Many in this Chamber have done that and have served as councillors. With the greatest of respect-----

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator should try running for election as a councillor while being a member of the Traveller community. Those places are not there because of Government parties like his.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Kelleher, without interruption.

Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With respect-----

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those places are not there because of Government parties like the yours.

Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With respect, who better can understand the role of a councillor than those who have served as councillors?

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those places are not there because of Government parties like yours. Members of my community do not have those opportunities. If it was that good, why did the Senator not stay on the council?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Through the Chair. Senator Kelleher is in possession.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it was that good, he could have stayed and done good community development work.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Kelleher.

Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the involvement of the local authority representative associations, including the AILG, of which I was a member for the entire duration of my time as a councillor, as was my colleague beside me Senator Brady and our colleague Councillor Anna Grainger, who is in the Gallery. The AILG does great work in representing councillors.It is also true to say that the Association of Irish Local Government has three of the 14 representatives on the local democracy task force and that LAMA, which is represented here by Councillor Malone this evening, has two representatives of the 14. It would be entirely undemocratic of us to disregard the work of the task force and to try to circumvent it by arriving at our own conclusion which, unlike the Minister of State, I view as being a little bit opportunistic. The proposal for a timed amendment is entirely appropriate. It is not, as many Senators describe it, kicking the can down the road. It is affording the local democracy task force an opportunity to arrive at conclusions, to reflect on them and then to legislate in an appropriate manner, not to second-guess the outcome because that is entirely premature. That is a key point, one which the Minister of State addressed in his remarks.

What we want to see achieved here is delivery. We want to see improved local democracy as a result of the outcomes of the task force. We want to see more powers, funding, greater autonomy and improved conditions for councillors. We also want to see progress on pensions, which was alluded to, in addition to improved access to legal and technical support and advice as well as the pay and non-pay supports for councillors. Ultimately, by improving local democracy in this country, it is the citizens who will benefit. That is what we need to achieve.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge the presence of Councillor Joe Malone, who does Trojan work and advocacy for local councillors. It is a well established fact that local authorities in Ireland are ineffectual. The Irish State is one of the most centralised democracies in Europe. City and county councils have not been given powers to address the issues facing their communities, much less the funding to deliver what is needed. We only have to look at the thousands of residents living in the flat complexes and people living in the inner city to recognise how local government has failed.

In 2008, Phil Hogan announced the Local Government Fund allocation in budget 2009 of €1.6 billion to local authorities.

Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It must have been millions.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If we fast-forward to budget 2026, €670 million was allocated to the same fund. It is clear that we are underfunding the services we desperately need at a local level and centralising spending at a local level. An OECD report in 2019 found that Ireland had the lowest level of decentralisation and local government spending relative to GDP. The Council of Europe publicly warned in 2023 that local government in Ireland was excessively centralised to the detriment of democratic representation and service delivery. Likewise, recent research conducted in Maynooth University found that Ireland's local authorities ranked well below the European average in democratic accountability, financial independence and power of initiative. It said that in many cases councils were essentially relegated to admin annexes of the national government.

It is interesting to hear Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Senators say what needs to be done. Senator Ahearn gave a list of what needs to be done. I remind him that he has been in government for 14 years. Why did he wait until now to do it?

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I gave a list of what has been done not what needs to be done.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I remind Senator Ahearn-----

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was an extensive list of what has been done.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Andrews should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, but I did not interrupt Senator Ahearn, so he should give me the same respect, if he does not mind. A long list was read out of what still needs to be done. Fine Gael has had 14 years to do it and the party has been sitting on its hands and letting councillors in local authorities down.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The list was about what has been done.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, but we have six minutes left.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am delighted Senator Andrews said it was a long list.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

At the outset, I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell-----

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was suggested that I said councillors are ineffectual and I would appreciate if that was changed. Obviously, they are very effective.

Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Andrews was a Government Deputy at the time.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator O'Reilly should be allowed to speak without interruption. We are down to a minute apiece.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thanks for working feverishly, a Chathaoirligh, to make sure that everyone gets in. I acknowledge my good friend, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, who has made strident efforts in the Ministry of local government to improve the lot of councillors. Security was a notable achievement of his, but he also worked in other spheres, which will fructify in the future. He is a true champion of councillors and we appreciate that. I acknowledge the presence of Councillor Anna Grainger in the Gallery, who herself is a great advocate for councillors.

There are a couple of salient points that need to be quickly made. First, councillors do need a pension. The opportunity to do that is in the context of auto-enrolment. Councillors must have a viable pension. It is an unthinkable concept that they would not.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The lump sum gratuity always needs to be reviewed but it must stand also that it needs upward review.

I commend Senator Black on bringing forward the Private Members' legislation. The question of administrative assistance is an absolute necessity given the complex nature of local government and the multitude of committees and meetings at municipal level. I support the motion and the principle that we must radically improve the position of councillors. They are the fundamental block of democracy.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Anyone who knows me knows that I am an ardent supporter of empowering local government, whether through greater technical and financial support or by granting greater powers to local authorities. However, while I support this Bill in spirit, after consulting several councillors, I will raise some questions and give constructive feedback. I and councillors to whom I have spoken find the Bill, though brief, to be very ambiguous. Since this is a general debate, I hope our discussion today will steer us in a good direction.

What exactly is the nature of this administrative support? Does it mean granting each councillor a budget to hire their own assistant or does it mean creating a pool of administrative assistants shared among councillors in a given council? If it is the latter, I can tell you immediately that it would raise serious concerns. Many councillors expressed concerns about confidentiality and conflicts of interest in a shared arrangement. They also worry that such a system would disproportionately benefit political parties over independent councillors. Furthermore, in rural councils, pooled assistants would likely favour councillors in central LEAs near council offices, leaving those in peripheral areas at a disadvantage.

Let us be honest: this is a very worthy Private Members' Bill, but the question is whether this is a full-time role or a part-time one. Everybody in this Chamber knows it is a full-time role. Councillors need to be rewarded and remunerated for the work they do. We must pay them properly and give them technical advice. They must be given their own independent solicitor and an independent auditor for budget time. That is what the councillors around this country need. We should up their local representational allowance from €5,160 to €12,000 and I am sure they could manage that themselves.

Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not hold the Minister of State for too long. In 2015, we brought a Commencement matter to this House on class K PRSI, which county councillors were paying.We - four county councillors and I - were forced to go to the High Court on the class K case. Immediately, the Minister changed county councillors to class A PRSI. They did not make it retrospective and, by not making it retrospective, they have hurt the social welfare record of many county councillors who will not now qualify for a contributory old age pension. If they do, they will qualify for a reduced old age pension. I ask the Minister of State to look at that.

I commend Senator Frances Black. She has always been a great supporter of county councillors. She has gone around the country to meet them and knows exactly what they want. The Bill is very well intentioned and I congratulate her on it. I wish I was smart enough to bring it in before her. That is all I can say on that one. I thank her for that. The Minister of State might look at that issue I have raised. The other final one is about the word "allowance". The allowance we get for expenses, the councillors do not get in the same way.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister of State is very welcome to the House. I welcome Councillor Anna Grainger and Tom to the Visitors Gallery. They are great councillors. I commend Senator Black and her colleagues for putting down this Bill. Any improvement in the terms and conditions of councillors is something that we unanimously support across the floor of the House.

There are a couple of key points I would like to see. I would like to see resources available for councillors when they require advice for public relations, when they require expert advice when it comes to county development plans and so they can retain independent advice. Similarly, they should be able to retain independent financial advice when entering negotiations on budgets. This type of resource should be available to them. It should be independent and I certainly believe that would help them and enhance them doing their job. Obviously, I hope this task force makes fundamental recommendations on the future role of local government. I know the Minister of State has a very sound listening ear when it comes to this.

Frances Black (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State for his genuine and very kind response to our legislation. I wish I could say the same about some of his colleagues here, but anyway, I will come back to the timed amendment piece. I have to bring that up again. It is becoming a regular feature and I am worried about it. It is being used in how the Government engages with legislation in this Seanad. As I said earlier, it is cynically undermining our parliamentary work going forward. It blocks us from doing the real work we want to do.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is true.

Frances Black (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am concerned about that and I wanted to say that. This is a very simple Bill. It is very simple. It would really support councillors, not only by supporting them in the work they do but also by validating the work they do. I actually take offence to what Senator Kelleher said. What he said was disgraceful in the sense that he implied we are disregarding the local democracy task force. I absolutely do not disregard it. I had long conversations with AILG. I have spoken with LAMA about this. It came into the briefing last week, supported it and actually said it would complement the work the local democracy task force is doing. I 100% agree with all of that work is going on and I think it is fantastic. I went through everything the local democracy task force is doing and I was blown away by the work that AILG and LAMA are doing, as well as others who are involved, such as the Department, the Minister and others. I wanted to put that on the record that I was actually quite offended by what was said.

I agree with what everybody else here said today in that there have to be many more supports, going forward. Senator Kyne gave a list of things and I think they need more pensions, more pay and more legal advice. As Senator Keogan said, it is a full time job. I have been going around the country and met with amazing councillors. Councillor Joe Malone, who is a good friend of mine, was probably one of the first councillors I ever met when I started my campaign back in 2016. Councillor Andy Maloney down in Tipperary is another unbelievable legend. Legends is what I would call these councillors. They dedicate their lives to their communities. The work they do in their communities is beyond belief. I have never been a councillor myself and I do not know how they do it. I know some Senators here have been councillors and I commend every single one of them who have been. I absolutely commend them because I saw the work councillors do. They are not only legally helping people, they are trying to get housing for people, get health sorted for people and they are therapists for people. They listen to people. They try to source things for people. I remember meeting with a Fianna Fáil Senator, Imelda Goldsboro, who is here now. I remember meeting her for the first time and she told me about how she was trying to help a woman get a Christmas turkey and toys for her children. It is unbelievable stuff. I genuinely think it is really important they get everything they need. This could be something in the meantime, alongside what the local democracy task force is doing, which is really important.

I want to highlight that we actually did a survey that was issued to councillors when I sent out the emails. We got 110 respondents and 97% of respondents said they really want administrative assistance and it would be extremely helpful. I want to put that on the record as well. Even though I know we are hearing different things from councillors and some said to me that they would love some legal advice and some said they would like more pay, this is just a very simple Bill that could be passed in the next few months and that would really validate the work councillors do.

Unfortunately, I will not agree with the amendment for this. It is important. I will wait until after task force issue its report to table Committee Stage. That is what I will do. I will table Committee Stage after the task force but I cannot agree with the amendment today. I have to vote against this timed amendment today because I just cannot agree with it. I do not think it is right or helpful for us in our work, going forward, which is why I cannot agree. However, I would like to work with the Minister of State. I know he is not the main person responsible but I think he has a special interest in this. I would like to work with him in some capacity on this issue because I think he cares and we could work together, going forward. It is absolutely vital. It is really important and I really believe in this Bill. I ask everybody here today to vote against the timed amendment.