Seanad debates

Thursday, 17 February 2022

Life Saving Equipment Bill 2017: Committee Stage

 

SECTION 1

Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

10:30 am

Photo of Robbie GallagherRobbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, to the House. I also welcome our guests, John, Celine and Jason, who have been promoting this legislation for a long time. They come from Senator Casey's neck of the woods. They are very welcome and I thank them for their work.

Given the passage of time, I would like to briefly outline the story behind this legislation. I pay tribute to my former colleague in the Seanad, Dr. Keith Swanick, who, as the Cathaoirleach will know, along with Senators Wilson, Paul Daly and Casey and Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, did a lot of work behind the scenes in bringing this legislation forward in 2017. I acknowledge the great work they have done. Our guests from Community First Responders Ireland have been promoting this particular cause for a long number years and continue to do so. As a society, we are deeply indebted to those individuals. I thank all of the first responders who give of their time to protect our communities. That is a great credit to them.

As we all know, there are approximately 2,000 defibrillators located in different areas across the length and breadth of this country.For many of them, the local community's hard work and fundraising are what has them there in the first instance. I acknowledge the work done by everyone from GAA clubs to other sporting organisations, all of which have contributed to putting those defibrillators in place. I acknowledge also first responders, without whom there would no point in having the equipment, given we would not be able to use it. They have taken out time to train themselves and keep themselves skilled in case they are called on in an emergency. They are there to come to the aid of their fellow citizens and I thank them for that most sincerely on behalf of the House, its Members and indeed every community in the country.

This legislation was introduced in 2017. The then Senator, Dr. Swanick, was of the opinion, as were all of us at that time, including the Cathaoirleach, that a new offence had to be created to deal with anyone who interferes with, steals or damages life-saving equipment. One example of such equipment is a defibrillator, while others include lifebuoys or life rings. Unfortunately, there have been many incidents, which appear to be on the increase, where these pieces of equipment are damaged. So far this year - we are only in the second month - I have come across approximately nine incidents in the country where defibrillators were interfered with, removed or damaged. The Cathaoirleach will know, coming from a coastal county, about the many lifebuoys and life rings that are constantly removed and damaged. I understand Dublin City Council spends something in the region of €20,000 per annum just to replace those rings.

As was mentioned by the then Minister of State on Second Stage in 2018, there is already legislation in place. Nevertheless, we believe, as do first responders, that there needs to be a definitive offence for anybody who interferes with, damages or removes life-saving equipment. I welcome the fact the Minister of State is appearing before the House to debate Committee Stage with a view to moving the legislation forward. Some of my colleagues were not here for the Second Stage debate but, if I recall correctly, all the Senators who were here, including Senator Ó Donnghaile, were in favour of the legislation and we tried to push the Department to move it forward. We have had negotiations with the Department about this matter and we hope to finalise those negotiations within the coming weeks in order that we can progress the legislation through the House within the coming months at the latest. From there, it will go to the Dáil, where Deputies will pick up the baton.

In conclusion, I thank the first responders, to whom we are deeply indebted, for taking time out of their day to attend the debate. I thank them also for the work they have done on behalf of the communities of this country. I look forward to the contributions of other Senators.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State and, like my colleague Senator Gallagher, I welcome also the representatives of Community First Responders Ireland, who are attending the debate from the Gallery. I ask the Cathaoirleach to bear with me for a moment because we have not debated this important legislation for some time and this is the first time it has been discussed in this Seanad. As some Senators will be aware, it was written and published by our former colleague and Senator, Dr. Keith Swanick, in 2017. He saw it through its early Stages in the Seanad and was eager to see it progressed and eventually passed into law, which is our objective today. As Senator Gallagher said, he and I supported it then, along with Senator Paul Daly and Senator Casey, who was a Member of the Lower House at that time but encouraged us very much in respect of the legislation, as did Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, our party's justice spokesperson in the Dáil.

At its heart, the Bill aims to deter anyone who seeks to damage vital, life-saving equipment. It is a simple Bill that seeks to introduce a specific offence of interfering with life-saving equipment. I understand and can appreciate the position of the Department of Justice, which maintains that such a crime is provided for under section 2 of the Criminal Damage Act 1991. I respectfully suggest, however, that the act of damaging life-saving equipment is so reprehensible that it deserves to be explicitly legislated for. Damaging or stealing life-saving equipment is not ordinary vandalism, such as graffiti or the theft of a street sign. These acts directly impact on whether a person survives an incident in his or her most critical hour of need.

The idea for this legislation came from CFR Ireland. I, like many others, attended a briefing in the audiovisual room in Leinster House a number of years ago in which that organisation explained clearly why this legislation was necessary. Community First Responders Ireland comprises volunteer, civilian responders who have been trained in resuscitation and defibrillation and are linked to the National Ambulance Service. When the emergency services are alerted to a cardiac arrest, chest pain, choking or stroke, a civilian responder from the local CFR scheme is automatically dispatched along with the ambulance services. I understand there are currently 270 CFR schemes in the country, all linked to the National Ambulance Service. CFR, like many of us, were sick and tired of hearing about yet another defibrillator having been torn from a wall or damaged, or another lifebuoy having been stolen.

I am sorry to say that, in the almost five years since this legislation was introduced, very little has changed. Just a number of weeks ago, CFR reissued its call for stricter penalties for anybody involved in vandalism against public defibrillators after two had been damaged in one week. Communities in Wicklow town and Tralee were left feeling frustrated and angry that they were without defibrillators after they had been destroyed. Over the Christmas period, four further defibrillators were damaged, in Ballina, County Mayo, Blarney, County Cork, Sallynoggin, County Dublin, and Carlow town. I have no idea what goes through the head of somebody who decides to wantonly destroy a defibrillator - not a lot, I would suspect. A defibrillator or a lifebuoy can be the difference in whether somebody survives a cardiac arrest or in whether somebody drowns.

The majority of these devices are put in place through fundraising by voluntary, community and sporting organisations. Other organisations such as the GAA have been very proactive in this area, including through the establishment of the Cormac Trust, which was set up after the sudden death many years ago of Tyrone GAA star Cormac McAnallen. It is one thing to know the value of a defibrillator; it is another to actually see the value of one.

On the day representatives from CFR came to speak to us in the audiovisual room, they were joined by Cathal Joyce, a young man from Athlone whose life had been saved by a defibrillator. In 2015, at the age of just 25, Cathal suffered a cardiac arrest while playing for Athlone. He simply would not be alive today had it not been for that defibrillator, which was close to hand.

It is important to point out that while much of our focus in this debate is on defibrillators, the legislation also covers items such as lifebuoys.

Like all colleagues in the House, I will fully support the legislation.I fully support this legislation. I ask the Minister of State to take back to the Minister for Justice the views of this House, which I know will be 100% supportive of this legislation. This is so important that it deserves its own place on our Statute Book. Hopefully it will deter people from damaging any type of life-saving equipment that is placed in our communities throughout the country. Once again I pay tribute to the community first responders and to our former colleague, Senator Swanick, for initiating this legislation.

Photo of Pat CaseyPat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome to the Chamber our guest, John Fitzgerald, who I know for a long time and who has been at the heart of the community first responder scheme since 2004. I was first introduced to it at a public meeting in Bray in 2003 and my own community in Laragh and Glendalough was one of the first within Wicklow to get up and running in 2004. I also welcome Celine and Jason who are not from my neck of the woods, one is from Cork and the other is from Dublin so we have a broad range. To come all the way from Cork to this debate today shows what value they put on this legislation. They are the people who are volunteering, who are out there doing the work for us and saving lives. That is what an AED does. It saves a life. It is not a piece of equipment, not a television or a microwave oven. There are several people alive today because of that piece of equipment. To say that it is covered under current legislation is not doing it justice.

This Bill originated from my colleagues, Dr. Keith Swanick, and Senators Gallagher, Wilson and Daly on foot of a defibrillator being smashed on Arklow Main Street in Christmas week 2016 which was captured on CCTV. The culprits were apprehended but nothing could happen because it was a piece of equipment. It was not worth going after. This is why we have to differentiate life-saving equipment from other pieces of equipment. It does what it says on the tin. It saves a life and we must value that life. Damage to life-saving equipment must have consequences. To say it is the same as another piece of equipment is no longer acceptable.

We have asked community first responders to go out and save lives, especially in our rural communities where it will probably be 30 to 45 minutes before ambulance services arrive. We know the importance of early intervention. We talk about the chain of survival, early access, early intervention, but the third one is defibrillation. What if in the morning in my community somebody was to have cardiac arrest, we intervene and get to stages 1 and 2, and somebody goes to Willie McCoy's shop to get the defibrillator off the wall to bring it back to save that life, only to find that somebody has robbed or smashed it? The person who has had the cardiac arrest is probably not going to survive and will not get to the hospital in time. We know there is a ten-minute window. For every minute that is wasted without intervention there is a further 10% chance of not surviving. So we have a ten-minute window.

Because of community involvement we are seeing AEDs everywhere today. This is happening because of the education of us as a public. Even in this House when we came back after Christmas, every floor and every corner now has an AED. It is not just that community first responders can use them anymore. People in society, because of their work over the years, can intervene in an instant, but they must know where the AED equipment is, and when they go there they have to know it is going to be intact so that they can use it to save a life. I more than hope, I insist that the Government treats this Bill seriously in the spirit in which it was drafted and takes on board what we are saying. If there are issues regarding the drafting of the legislation let us address them, but let us not lose this Bill because of what I would call bureaucracy. This is required. Community first responders in Ireland are asking for it. We ask them to go out on a voluntary basis to save lives for us, and the least we can do is acknowledge them, recognise what they are doing and implement what they are asking us to do.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome to the Chamber John Fitzgerald, Celine and Jason and thank them for all the work they have done in terms of championing this Bill but also championing the issue of having life-saving equipment safe, secure and available for people when they need it most. There is a quote from the Bible that if you save one life you save the world entire, so I am quite sure they have saved the world many times over.

I am conscious of time. We have scheduled only 30 minutes for the debate and I know people want to hear from the Minister of State. Everybody can speak but we are going to adjourn consideration of the Bill. If all Members speak we may not hear from the Minister of State. I have Senators Wall, Ward, Daly, Keogan and Ó Donnghaile yet to speak and then the Minister of State, and we have nine minutes remaining.

Photo of Mark WallMark Wall (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State. It is important that I say a few words on this Bill. I also welcome Community First Responders Ireland to the House. As the Cathaoirleach will be aware I have continuously raised the importance of AEDs in all our communities since I was first elected to this House. I am glad that today we are also including lifebuoys as part of this Bill.

I congratulate my Fianna Fáil colleagues for bringing this important legislation before us because coming from a town with a canal and a river, the importance of lifebuoys cannot be overemphasised. Unfortunately we have had incidents in the past where, when a person went to look for those lifebuoys, they were not there.

The importance of AEDs has been mentioned by every previous speaker and I want to thank the defibrillator operators throughout Ireland, the community first responders and the GAA clubs that have been mentioned. My own GAA club has one and I have been trained in its use. That is important, and something we all should do in this House, to get up to speed and be trained in the use of an AED.

I will quickly mention two other items. We need to remove VAT from the cost of AEDs. As has been said this is community funded. People are going out collecting money to buy AEDs. That is important. Also most importantly we need a national register of AEDs. I have called for this through a Commencement matter in this House on numerous occasions. I believe the National Ambulance Service is carrying out that register and that is important.

Today is a very important day. We need to ensure that when a person looks for that AED to save a life, it is there, and I congratulate the Fianna Fáil Senators on bringing this Bill forward. I again thank the community first responders throughout all our communities for the great work they do.

Photo of Barry WardBarry Ward (Fine Gael)
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I also welcome the Bill. It is an important recognition of the distinct and singular purpose of life-saving equipment. I join with the Fianna Fáil Senators in acknowledging that is an important aspect that merits a different offence apart from an offence of criminal damage or theft. It is right and proper that section 2 acknowledges the two different types of life-saving equipment, that is, the AED and other life-saving equipment like lifebuoys. Coming from a coastal area, Dún Laoghaire, Dalkey and Sandycove have had issues with lifebuoys being stolen, damaged or burned in one instance in Blackrock. It is entirely appropriate that this would be recognised specifically by its own piece of legislation.

Senator Casey raised the issue of the possible requirement by the Government to amend the legislation. I presume that does not arise given that no amendments have been tabled. I do not have a difficulty with that. One of the nice things about this Bill is that it is quite proportionate. It is not seeking to do anything beyond the norm. The penalty provisions provided for in it still give discretion for summary or disposal, or disposal or indictment. That is welcome.I wonder about the drafting on section 2 regarding the fact that a medical emergency must have been notified to the emergency services. If somebody does not make that call at the time it is used, is it an issue? Still, these matters are within the discretion of the prosecutorial authorities and I would have every faith that they would do the right job.

I also welcome the first responders who are here. Their colleagues in my area of Dalkey and Dún Laoghaire in particular do amazing work keeping us all safe. They deserve credit but they also deserve the protection of the law, which is why this Bill is particularly welcome.

Photo of Paul DalyPaul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I also welcome the community first responders. I compliment my colleagues who have worked to keep this Bill alive and see it through to its fruition. It would have been detrimental if the Bill ended when our former colleague, Dr. Keith Swanick, decided not to run for election the last time. Senator Wilson mentioned the contribution of Cathal Joyce in the AV room. I was at that game in Cusack Park on the day his life was saved. I am actively involved in Westmeath GAA. We have a lot of issues with vandalism in Cusack Park, be it windows, nets or flower pots, but luckily the AED was not damaged. If property is vandalised, it can be repaired monetarily but if that defibrillator had been vandalised, it would have a cost a life and Mr. Joyce would tell you that himself so that is the distinction between vandalismper seand damage to life-saving equipment. I compliment my colleagues for keeping this Bill to the fore. Hopefully, it will get over the line sooner rather than later.

Photo of Sharon KeoganSharon Keogan (Independent)
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I also support my Fianna Fáil colleagues. On Second Stage, the then Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, pointed out that the Bill allows for the removal of the AED during an identifiable medical emergency that has been notified to the emergency services. This would mean that if somebody throws a lifebuoy to a person without notifying the incident or some other person notifying the incident to the emergency services, he or she would be guilty of a crime. The people who are going out to save lives are going out to save lives and obviously they want use of those AEDs. The last thing they are probably thinking is, "Oh gosh, I have to ring the emergency services". We want to protect those people as well.

The Bill just protects the AEDs we have. There is no doubt that we need more of them. Community-funded initiatives are great but we should look at making it mandatory for large supermarkets and shopping centres to have or more of these installed. I also commend the work of cardiac first responders throughout this country. They do great work and are on duty 24-7 so I commend them for the great work they do in saving lives.

Photo of Niall Ó DonnghaileNiall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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I join colleagues in commending the Fianna Fáil Senators who have brought this Bill back before us today. I also acknowledge the role played by our former colleague, Dr. Keith Swanick. I spoke on Second Stage and indicated my support and that of Sinn Féin for the legislation. I reiterate this support today. I acknowledge the vital work community first responders do throughout Ireland. I was listening to the debate as people were reflecting on that and thought about a colleague of mine who people will know, Michelle Gildernew, MP for Fermanagh and South Tyrone. I have been on Zoom meetings in more recent times where she has had to get up and run out the door because there has been a car crash or a neighbour in her rural constituency has had a heart attack so I know how crucial the work done by community first responders is.

After the very public incident involving Christian Eriksen, I contacted the Cathaoirleach and asked on the Order of the Business that we would install additional defibrillators around this institution not only for our own protection but to lead by example as an institution. Like Senator Casey, I welcome the very visual number of defibrillators around the building. I received training in defibrillator use many years ago when I worked in a primary school. I do not know if I could manage one right now so part of my request at the time was that the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission would consider making training available to Oireachtas Members. I reiterate that call if it is not already in train. I support the legislation and look forward to it coming back and getting through the House.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I welcome the first responders. Few of the Members who have spoken here this afternoon know what it is like to wake up at 5 a.m. with a pain in your chest as if you had just been hit by a bus. I have had that experience. I spent two years from 1999 to 2001 carefully assessing everywhere I went outside Dublin to see if there was a hospital close by. I cannot begin to tell Members the fear you feel when you get a pain in your chest. In December 1999, several months after having stents fitted, I remember getting a pain in my chest in Terenure and the fear I felt. It was late at night and I was on my own. There were people all around me but nobody close to me and I thought this was it and that I would not see tomorrow - the thoughts that run through your mind when you try to put yourself in order to meet your maker. I was fortunate; I got to Tallaght Hospital and stayed there for four months.

Fair play to Dr. Keith Swanick; he always put community issues first. I am delighted to see that his colleagues brought this Bill before the House again. I see no reason it should fail to pass in its entirety. It is, as Senator Ward said, very measured. Please let it pass as quickly as possible without any impediment or amendments. I do not see the need for them.

Photo of Robbie GallagherRobbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all my colleagues for their very positive contributions. Meetings with the Department in the coming weeks are planned where we hope to progress a couple of issues outlined by the Department. Hopefully, we can overcome those difficulties. It makes sense. The quicker we get it done, the better so I look forward to coming back to the House when those issues have been ironed out so that this issue can be progressed and we can pass the Bill on to our colleagues in the Lower House.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Photo of Robbie GallagherRobbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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Next Tuesday at 2.30 p.m.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar athló ar 1.50 p.m. go dtí 2.30 p.m., Dé Máirt, an 22 Feabhra 2022.

The Seanad adjourned at 1.50 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 February 2022.