Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform to the Chamber. I wish to advise him that he has ten minutes to address the House.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased to be here this afternoon and to have the opportunity to present the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2021 to the House, which passed all Stages in the Dáil last week.

The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission came Into existence on 1 January 2004 under the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act 2003. The founding commission legislation in 2003 led, in summary, to two consequences: (1) that the commission became the sanctioning authority for expenditure and for deciding on staff numbers up to the grade of principal officer, and the provision of services and related matters to the Oireachtas; and (2) that the system for the allocation of budgets to the Oireachtas changed from the annual Civil Service Estimates and Vote procedure to a different process involving a three-year budget drawn from the Central Fund. The new budget is set every three years following negotiations with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The budget is approved at political level by the commission and the amending legislation then is passed by both Houses.

Under the terms of the inaugural commission Act, a three-year budget, covering the period 2004 to 2006, was provided for the commission. Further Acts were enacted in 2006, 2009, 2015 and 2018. A new Oireachtas commission Act is now required as a matter of priority, as the financing provided under the 2018 Act expires on 31 December next.

As Senators will be aware, the Oireachtas commission oversees the provision of services to the Houses and their Members by the Houses Of the Oireachtas Service, the parliamentary administration, in accordance with the commission Acts. The primary functions of the commission are to provide for the running of the Houses of the Oireachtas, to act as governing body of the service, to consider and determine policy in respect of the service and to oversee the implementation of that policy by the Secretary General. The commission is not responsible for the management and day-to-day operations of the Houses. The Secretary General has overall responsibility for these functions in accordance with the commission Acts. Neither does the Commission set the level of remuneration payable to Members of the Houses. Salaries, pensions and allowances are determined by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform of the day.The commission is accountable to the Parliament and presents annual reports of its work to both Houses together with Estimates and accounts of its expenditure.

I would like to acknowledge at this point the hugely valuable role played by secretarial, parliamentary and administrative assistants in supporting Members and delivering a high quality service to the Oireachtas. As a Member of Dáil Éireann for more than 14 years, I am acutely conscious of the extraordinary work all our staff do day in, day out. I am also conscious the nature of the role of the secretarial assistant today is far more complex and much busier than it once was. The nature of the role has changed and developed over the years. Secretarial assistants, as we all know, face an ever increasing range of complex issues and engage with and assist people, often at very difficult times in their lives. I acknowledge the current demands on secretarial assistants are different and more challenging than those that were in place when the 2003 Act was passed.

The scheme for secretarial assistance is the mechanism under which secretarial assistants and others are engaged. Under the scheme, the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission has the power to regulate the provision of secretarial facilities to Members and qualifying parties. Secretarial assistants, administrative assistants, parliamentary assistants, administrators and chefs de cabinetare employed by Members and by qualifying parties but are paid by the Commission. The commission also regulates the number of staff employed under the scheme and has oversight of the operation of the scheme. Under the 2003 Act, the commission must obtain the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform of the day before reaching an agreement with any person on rates of pay, conditions of employment or superannuation rights. In practice, this means the commission advises on matters relating to resourcing, grading and terms and conditions of employment, and submits proposals to myself for consideration and agreement.

In that regard, I am aware there is a process under way at the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, dealing with various issues, including alignment with the current public service pay agreement, Building Momentum, between the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and SIPTU. It is important to emphasise there is a process under way. My understanding is that both the commission and SIPTU have written to the WRC and are proposing a re-engagement at the WRC and that engagement will now take place in January 2022. I want a successful resolution of this matter and early presentation of proposals for my agreement. In that regard, I will work positively with my officials to ensure there is ongoing engagement with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission in working towards a resolution to this issue as soon as we possibly can in the new year. I sent a pretty clear political signal on that front in the Dáil last week, as I did when I was here last week when Senator Craughwell tabled a Commencement matter on this issue.

The Houses of the Oireachtas Service is the public service body which administers the Oireachtas on behalf of the commission as the governing authority. The functions of the service are set out in legislation. They can be broadly summarised as the provision of professional advice and support services to the commission, the Houses and their committees, and Members.

The sole purpose of this Bill is to make available the funding for the commission over the coming three years. The Bill proposes to make available to the commission a sum not exceeding €462.505 million to carry out its functions for the three-year period from 1 January 2022 to 31 December 2024. This sum has been agreed between the commission and my Department and takes into account foreseen expenditure over the three-year period. The figure of €462.505 million over three years comprises €160.7 million in 2022, €150.8 million in 2023 and €151 million in 2024 and represents a €40.2 million or 9.5% increase on the allocation for the 2019-2021 period.

Within the overall envelope it should be noted that pay and pensions comprise €323.4 million or 70% of the overall allocation. Members' allowances total €37.9 million or 8% of the overall budget allocation and non-pay expenditure totals €101.3 million or 22% of the total allocation.

Ireland, as we all know, has a very proud parliamentary tradition and a large portion of the extra funding that has been provided is for an ongoing programme of parliamentary reform. Chief among these reforms is the enhanced role for the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO. Building on initiatives in other countries such as the Congressional Budget Office in the United States, the PBO has been put in place to provide independent and impartial budgetary and economic analysis for all parliamentarians in the Oireachtas.

Further Oireachtas reforms include the development of the Private Members' Bills Policy Unit within the Office of the Parliamentary Legal Adviser. Based on my experience, I acknowledge the crucial role the Office of the Parliamentary Legal Adviser plays in the running of the Oireachtas. Without such an office, it is hard to see how the Oireachtas would function on a day to day basis. Its main objective is to provide independent legal advice to members of the Oireachtas and of the committees. The office also assists Members in research, the development of policy proposals, the drafting of Bills and amendments, and in pre-Committee Stage scrutiny.

Extra funding is also being provided to cater for a larger number of Oireachtas committees and the associated staffing requirements that follow. Oireachtas committees provide a critical avenue for scrutiny of Government and Government policy and it is right and proper they should be funded to fulfil this important role. While these measures will result in increased staffing and administration costs, they represent a very welcome commitment to the further enhancement of our parliamentary democracy.

Other elements in the new funding envelope include the provision for financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, pay restoration measures. I am pleased the allocation for the period 2022-2024 will include provision for a significant investment in ICT infrastructure as part of the ongoing Oireachtas digital transformation programme. In total, €22.8 million has been set aside for this purpose over the next three years.

We have all experienced at first hand the importance of modern methods of communications during the past 21 months since the pandemic hit. It is to the credit of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission that the ongoing work of Deputies and Senators was supported during the periods in which our physical presence was severely curtailed. In particular, the digital transformation programme will provide technology in the Chambers that will implement long-term solutions to facilitate collaboration and productive workflows; digitise existing processes and ways of working, as well as providing modern tools to support Members and staff when carrying our parliamentary activities; implement advanced technology to enhance the research and analysis capabilities within the Oireachtas; and improve transparency between the Oireachtas and the general public.

It should be noted that a once-off general election allocation of €10.5 million has also been provided in the overall envelope, although we are not expecting a general election within the timeframe of the budget set out here.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Bring it on.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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While funding is the sole purpose of the Bill, a number of amendments of a technical nature are required. I will briefly provide Senators with details of the amendments involved. Section 1 amends section 5 of the principal Act to provide funding for expenditure incurred by the commission during the period of three years from 1 January 2022. The amount of funding for that period is capped at €462.505 million. Section 2 is a standard form provision and sets out the Short Title, collective citation and commencement date for the Bill.

I commend this Bill to the House. I very much look forward to discussing it with my Seanad colleagues.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for that. I will call the group spokespersons leading off with Senator Wilson.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister. As I always acknowledge, it is important and it makes a difference when the front-line Minister comes to the Seanad. Last week, the Minister got traction when he spoke in the Dáil with regard to secretarial allowances. People felt that he was positively disposed to resolving that issue. I welcome his comments and the fact that he raised that issue before we even raised it with him.

Conscious that this meeting was going to happen and we were going to discuss this Bill, however, Senators tabled some valid amendments. While I support the legislation, I also support the amendments. We could never anticipate what the Minister might have said here today. We will have another opportunity. We are only considering Second Stage of this Bill today. I will not, therefore, dwell too much on that only to say that I have spoken to a substantial number of secretarial assistants from all parties across the House and they seem to share the same view and concern. Their pay is nothing short of a disgrace, particularly and more importantly when one puts it up against the pensions. Politicians on all sides of both Houses have been criticised time and time again by the media and other people outside with regard to our pensions. I took the time today to look at the pension schemes and financial incentives and schemes for the elected Members of this House and then I looked at the five, ten and 15-year expectation for secretarial assistants. It is nothing short of a disgrace. It will be put in the public domain in the next day or two and rightly so. It should be scrutinised.

We cannot stand in this House and talk about certain Members of this House not getting the proper pay. We must see it in the context of our own pay and our own generous allowances and expenses. Let us call a spade a spade. We are here doing a job but we are part of a team doing a job in these Houses. The Minister knows it and so do I. I could not survive without my secretarial assistant. They are stretched and are working exceptionally hard. Many of them must travel. They put their hand in their pocket to pay for their meals, lunches and travel. They pay for their accommodation if they have to come from outside Dublin. Put all that into the mix and they are getting a bad and a raw deal and we cannot stand over it. I am happy to elaborate in more detail with the Minister outside this Chamber and also when we discuss the issue at the next Stage.

I have no problem in essence with regard to the legislation and the Bill before us. It costs €462 million to run the Houses. That is the reality of it; that is what it costs. I first wish to acknowledge the enormous work of the Clerk of the Dáil, Mr. Peter Finnegan, the Clerk of the Seanad, Mr. Martin Groves, all the other people who work on the commission and their staff and teams who keep the show on the road and keep the cogs in Leinster House oiled. They have worked through exceptionally difficult times with regard to Covid-19 in keeping the place open. That has not been easy. It has been challenging for them as it has been for us. That is really important. We could not have survived without their dedication and commitment that went way beyond the call of duty and way beyond the reasonable hours that anybody could be expected to run.

I sit on the Oireachtas audit committee so I tend to know a lot of the financial workings of the service. That is a really great insight and one sees things that, perhaps, other people never see. We audit all aspects and facets of this organisation and it is an eye-opener. I can tell you one thing as a member of the audit committee. The value for money is paramount and excellent and we are running an exceptionally good and professional show on a very well-managed and well-audited system. In terms of governance of all of that, it is exceptionally good. That is something I want to share with the House.

I support everything the Minister is doing but I am concerned about the pay, conditions and pensions. The Minister might wish to look at the figures in respect of pensions. It is just unbelievable and it is not good enough. Some Independents, members of Sinn Féin, the Labour Party and other groups have tabled and signed amendments. There is still room for more signatures. It is all very well talking here in solidarity but Members in this House can put their signatures on those amendments overnight and add to them. Let us stand in solidarity across this House and show no divide. Let us stand with our staff and support them on top of what the Minister is doing. I am not taking away from anything he is doing. I am confident from everything I have learned about him and everything that people have said that he will work on it. Let us also stand as Oireachtas Members, however, in solidarity with the staff here and those who are at their desks now working for the Minister and me, and for this country.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Well said.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister. I thank him for bringing forward this important legislation. I also acknowledge the work done by all the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas day in, day out; a lot of it unseen but much of it very visible both for Members and visitors to these Houses. It is important in terms of the running of the Houses of the Oireachtas that we acknowledge the work they do on our behalf in ensuring that the operation of the Parliament is carried on and also that visitors and people who come to our Parliament, whether they be dignitaries or members of the public, receive a fair and proper welcome as well.

I acknowledge their work in particular during the Covid period, which has resulted in increased challenges and workload. I must say that from the feedback we received at the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission meetings, in some cases, there has not always been adherence by all Members. I am not saying Senators, indeed, but by all Members. Reports have been given to us and to the party whips although not to Fine Gael, of course, because we did not do anything out of the way-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Sure.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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-----as I questioned at that time. No members of Fine Gael were brought to the attention of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission but there were members of other parties who were, or indeed are, Independents.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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No; other parties, I can understand.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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That was on the record. Situations were brought to people's attention relating to masks not being worn and people not adhering to guidelines and treating staff in an inappropriate manner. That is wrong.

It was reported in the media that we sought sanction for additional staffing for the Houses of the Oireachtas for the coming years, some of it related to translation services and some related to additional committee work. I am not sure whether the Minister has approved those. I believe 111 extra staff were sought over a three-year period. It is a considerable increase in staffing, but we were putting an extra workload on the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. All the time, we seek new committees or additional services. That was the request and I understand there was a business case put forward for each of those positions to the Minister. I am sure the funding of the positions was included in the request for funding over the three-year period.

I agree with everything the Minister said regarding the secretarial allowance positions. Senator Wall would have received updates from the commission as well regarding the status of talks with the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. We had a discussion previously on the Order of Business and there was unanimous support for the important role played by secretarial assistants, SAs, the changed role they have and the fact that, for Senators, the SA is effectively our PA. They do the work of parliamentary assistants in the Dáil, everything that is expected of them and that is not reflected in the salary or pensions that they receive. As the Minister stated, the matter is back with the WRC and it is important an appropriate settlement is reached and that we value the role of our SAs and recognise the enhanced role of Seanad SAs that has not been reflected in the salary they receive.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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It is nice to see the Minister. He is very welcome. The Bill is an important one and Sinn Féin will be supporting it. Like other speakers, I acknowledge the amazing work done by all the Oireachtas staff here every day, much of which goes unheard and unseen. Staff put in tremendous hours and their dedication and patience with us is incredible at times. It is very important we secure funding to ensure the Oireachtas continues to run smoothly. That is especially the case when we consider the tremendously challenging times we have been through in recent years and the changes and challenges that have been met admirably by the Oireachtas staff.

I very much welcome that but, to be honest, I have a concern regarding our secretarial staff, because the process to which the Minister has referred has not been working. The reason it has not been working is because the HR department here was not given a mandate to negotiate a decent pay rise and a decent improvement in conditions for secretarial staff. We know that is a fact because we know the offer that was made under the Minister's watch earlier this year was nothing short of derisory. I am sorry to be blunt with him, but that is the fact of the matter. Offering 3% to staff who are paid €11.75 an hour was nothing less than an insult.

I have a little bit of insight into negotiations as I am a union official by trade. I know how these things work. I pay tribute to the Minister because he nails it in his speech. He makes it very clear, "Salaries, pensions and allowances are determined by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform". It is there in black and white. He goes on to say, "the commission must obtain the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform of the day before reaching an agreement with any person on rates of pay, conditions of employment or superannuation rights". In the words of the Minister, the buck stops with him.

I am nervous because, after we sign off on the Bill, my worry is that when my colleagues from my union, SIPTU, go back into those talks in January, they are going to be met again with the message that those involved do not have the means to negotiate more. In that regard, I will ask the Minister a simple question. Has he factored in a significant increase for our secretarial assistant staff into the figure of €462.505 million? Has he factored in the key requests they have made, not just in terms of pay but in terms of regrading the position of secretarial assistant? As I stated in the debate on the previous day, it is a complete misnomer. What an entirely inappropriate title for the amazing work these staff do. Has the Minister factored that money in? Otherwise, my concern is my union colleagues will be met with a message that the funding is not there. Let us be clear: we need to move dramatically beyond the derisory offer that was made earlier this year. That is not going to cut it.

I acknowledge the Minister has said some very positive things but my concern is there is an ideology within the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, not personally on the part of the Minister, that I came across in my time as a union official, which is to give as little as possible almost all the time. My concern is for our secretarial assistants, who have been abandoned for years. Let us not forget that this process has been ongoing since 2018. In a process of three and a half years, what has been delivered so far is the most derisory of offers for the secretarial assistants.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Yes.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I need to understand what the step change is going to be and I need to hear it from the Minister because he is the decision maker. He has the power to fix this. When he fixes it, he will be doing so not on Sinn Féin's behalf but on behalf of all of the political parties here. I do not believe there is any difference on either side of this Chamber in terms of what needs to be done for these people.

I have a genuine fear that once we pass this Bill, when those negotiations resume, we will hear the same voices from the Department who will be talking about unintended consequences and if it does this there will be claims from X, Y, Z and all the rest of it. That will not do. We need to see a clear step change. We do not need to see these talks dragged out any further. Three and a half years is far too long. A mandate must be given to the HR department and to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to sanction a significant pay rise and deal with the other very reasonable issues that have been raised about converting overtime into an allowance. The grade must be changed for these people so they can see a substantial difference from next year. They have waited far too long as it is. My worry is that, so far, the reality is the people negotiating with my union, SIPTU, do not have a mandate to offer any more than the grim, insulting 3%.

It is a stain on all of us for as long as we have people in here being paid as little as €11.75. It is awful. I do not understand why we do not make this site a living wage site so that we could look everyone in the eye, whether employed directly by the Oireachtas or employed by contractors, and know that at least they get the living wage of €12.90 an hour.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Why have we not done that? Why have we not ensured that for the contract cleaning staff, who do an amazing job in this Parliament, day in and day out, year in and year out? Their employer group has just abandoned them. It has said it will just not bother with the most recent pay rise they were due. We can fix this by declaring this a living wage site. Why do we not do that and set a great example for other employers throughout the country? It would not even cost much money.

Getting back to the key point, secretarial assistant staff have been let down tremendously in the past three and a half years. They have optimism because of the positive comments the Minister made last week, which I welcome, but I want to hear in his response a very clear reassurance that he will give a clear mandate from his Department to the HR department in the Oireachtas to negotiate a significant pay rise for these staff without any further delays so that we see an offer on the table at the end of January that is worthwhile, recognises the skills and expertise of these people and, above all, gets rid of this ridiculous title of secretarial assistant. We need to be ambitious because if we do not get this done now, how many more years will they have to wait? Some of us naively thought it would be fixed because of the cross-party appeal that was made at the end of the previous Seanad.I have to put on record that it is extremely disappointing that the Minister has not agreed to meet with these workers. Putting that to one side, the Minister has said that he has the power to fix this. I am respectfully calling on him to just do that - to get it fixed and to give these people the respect, the income, the terms and conditions and the decency they deserve and have been denied for far too long.

Mark Wall (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister to the House this evening. Importantly, I should first put on the record that for another short period I will be member of the current commission. Senator Kyne mentioned that in his contribution. I want to welcome some of the new contents of the Bill, particularly with regard to the PBO. I have seen some of what is involved there. It is a very positive step in relation to what we need to do here in the Oireachtas. Particularly as a new Member, I think it is positive for everybody on all sides of the House. I welcome that development.

Like previous speakers, I want to concentrate on the secretarial role here and the work that the secretarial assistants do for us all. Before my contribution on that topic, I want to acknowledge the work done by all the staff in running both Houses and the Leinster House campus. It is valued by us all. Again, I speak as a new Member who has come in here. I have valued the support of all staff in showing me around. I am sure I speak for all of those who have joined in the recent past.

The first topic I raised as a member of the commission when I attended my first meeting in August of last year was the problem surrounding the payment of those we engage as secretarial assistants in both Houses. As Senator Kyne said, following that intervention and following the continued raising of that issue by colleagues at our commission meetings, this important matter has become a standing item each month at our commission meeting. Each month, we are given an update by the HR unit on where things stand. Unfortunately, as other Members have outlined, it has been standing still since last August, despite what was promised in the recent past. I agree wholeheartedly with my colleague Senator Gavan that this campus should be a place where workers earn a living wage. We should show an example and the Government should take that on board. I am sure the Minister will mention that in his reply.

There can be little doubt that the work of our secretarial assistants has evolved and changed dramatically over the past 20 years. Our daily asks of our secretarial assistants are enormous and do not reflect the perceived job. Indeed, the Minister mentioned that in his contribution when he spoke about what we did in a bygone era. Gone are the days when secretarial assistants worked from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. and simply looked after dictated letters or answered a phone. The job has developed into a much more comprehensive role. Put simply, none of us would be able to function without those who work for us.

I welcome the Minister’s contribution and his positive words. Indeed, he said last week during a Commencement debate that he wants a successful resolution of the matter and an early presentation of proposals. Those words will resound with all of the secretarial assistants. It is important that the Minister puts those words on the record again tonight. In my own case, my secretarial assistant Aoife Breslin is often found digging through school and Department websites as she tries to the bottom of the lack of school places in the area of Kildare South where I live. She does this to try to assist me in my work, rather than doing what a secretarial assistant might normally be expected to do. The role of secretarial assistant is an extension of what we do and how we are viewed by those who contact our offices. This is because our assistants are more often than not the first point of contact for people who contact our offices. It is safe to say that the rates of pay bear little or no correlation to the real value of the work. More importantly, they bear no resemblance to the work that secretarial assistants carry out.

It is great to see that so many people want to get involved at the secretarial assistant rate and want to get involved at that level of politics. It is important to say that many of our secretarial assistants will replace us in these Houses over the coming years. It is also important to say that they are not getting paid a reasonable rate. There is no reason for low pay in this sector. There is certainly no reason for the starting level of pay. Many secretarial assistants would have to wait a considerable length of time - it has been estimated that it would take up to 18 years - to receive a level of remuneration that would reflect what we expect of them. Added to that is the job insecurity which is tied to a Member's performance in the general election or indeed a Seanad election. I am sure many people on the outside world would describe our valued assistants as being brave people for wanting to take on such a role.

I thank my Labour Party colleagues Chloe Manahan, Alan Murphy, Stuart Allen and Peter Horgan for their considerable work in highlighting this matter since 2018, and for continuing to push for resolution along with my union, SIPTU. As others have said, with only one person working for each of us in the Seanad there can be no doubt that the workload of those working for Senators is considerably more than the workload of those who work so hard in Deputies' offices. Having worked for ten years as a parliamentary assistant, I am more aware of that fact. I am more aware of the work that is being carried out by my own secretarial assistant.

In responding to the Minister’s contribution today and his reply to last week's Commencement matter in the Seanad, I have written to the commission to seek its approval for the proposal that he has sought from the commission. I would like the Minister to outline the nature of that proposal. I am informed that it will be discussed at the next meeting, which I believe will take place next Monday. That is the core of the issue. The commission wants to know exactly what the position is. I take on board what Senator Wilson said on confidentiality. I am not going to say anything other than that. The commission wants to solve this as well as the Minister does. We are all in the same boat. We need the wording and we need it quickly. I look forward to that happening in the quickest possible time in the new year. It is an embarrassment that cannot continue to go on, as I said at a recent briefing we got from SIPTU. I look forward to playing my part in this regard in the short time I have left on the commission. I also look forward to seeing the Minister play his part, as he has been asked to do.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. It is a great pleasure to have him here. I thank Senator Wilson who started on my behalf. I was slightly delayed on the way in. As the Minister is aware, every three years this legislation has to come to the House to be passed. Without it, these Houses could not function. That is the primary reason this Bill is here today. I hear what some of our colleagues on the Opposition benches are saying, the concerns they have and the good points they make about secretarial allowances and PAs. They certainly are valid points. I am not going to repeat the good points that were made by my colleagues, Senators Wilson and Kyne. However, I ask the Minister to clarify if this is the appropriate forum at which to bring up this issue. I am sure it has its place and I have no doubt it has to be dealt with. There are concerns and issues, but I do not know if today's debate is the appropriate forum to bring up this issue. This cycle comes around every three years. It is important to keep these Houses flowing and moving and to make sure the work continues here. The Minister might reply to that when he gets a chance.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. This is an important Bill, but it is also a missed opportunity. We should not have taken this week and next week to do it, which are the last weeks in which it can be done. We should have done this in a rolling way. As I said on the Order of Business two weeks ago, our role as parliamentarians and the role of our staff have changed considerably over time. The Minister spoke about our proud parliamentary traditions. We have those traditions, but I remind all Members of the House that democracy is not cheap. In some cases, the words and actions of some people have demeaned and undermined the value of democracy, of parliament and of parliamentarians. We should reflect on that.

It is important in this debate that we pay tribute, and not in a patronising way, to the men and women who work in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I refer to those who work on all aspects and all phases of the work of the House, from those who work in the Oireachtas Library and Research Service to those who turn off the lights at night, and all points in between. I am not going to identify anybody.

We must all grasp an opportunity to talk about the context of our secretarial assistants.As Senator Gavan said, to paraphrase him, the name itself is wrong. It should be changed. The role should be transformed completely. It is an outmoded and outdated concept and the pay is insulting, if we are being honest. I am not being adversarial but it is absolutely appalling.

There is an opportunity now and it is one we must all grasp. This Bill is a missed opportunity. The Minister was correct when he mentioned the Parliamentary Budget Office, which we welcome. He was also correct about the issue of committees. I chaired a committee for five years where we brought in pre-legislative scrutiny on a lot of very contentious legislation. It was the right place to do it and the correct thing to do, but one of the critical things we have missed is the role of parliamentarians - Senator Boyhan was correct when he stated that we cannot talk about Senators unless we address the issue of the pay and conditions of staff - and the support given to Members of the Seanad. Let us not cod ourselves. Maybe the Minister will be here someday. I hope he will not be, but maybe he will.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I made the point in the Chamber two weeks ago that our staff are parliamentary assistants, researchers, psychotherapists, sociologists and mental health experts. They are now social media gurus, journalists writing press releases and speeches, and deal with members of the public at their most vulnerable. Nobody is taking cognisance of that in officialdom. The role has changed, as has our role as parliamentarians. I will conclude on this. There are not too many coming behind me and it is an important debate.

Mark Wall (Labour)
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It surely is.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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There are not too many who are trying to ride both horses in being a Deputy and a Seanadóir. As Members of the Upper House, the research we have to do in the scrutiny of legislation means that we deserve to have parliamentary assistants and not just one member of staff. I thank the Acting Chairperson for his indulgence.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is very welcome to the House. Over the past number of difficult years he has been important on a number of fronts to the constituency I serve, and to the country in general, as we dealt with something nobody had seen happen before with the pandemic. Like many Members, I welcome the fact that the Minister has come to the Chamber himself to give this address and listen to what we have to say. I might not even use up my four minutes because Senator Wilson has adequately covered much of what I was going to say. Senator Davitt followed up on it as well.

Like most Members, I pay tribute to our secretarial staff. My own lady, Ashley, has to put up with me in making sure that everything is looked after, including all the representatives and meetings, and that I am on time for everything I am supposed to do. In my case, I have become known as the person who loses his keys more often than anybody else in the Houses of the Oireachtas. God help her and God help the ushers because it has happened too many times.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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On a more serious note, our secretarial staff have done a wonderful job. Like everybody else, we would like to see their conditions changed and their jobs upgraded. It is very good to hear the Minister say so much about those assistants in his address. I picked out four paragraphs at an early stage. He also spoke recently in the Dáil about the important growth of pay, which is included in this address as well.

The public will ask, on an ongoing basis, why it takes so much money to run the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is a significant amount. I will pick out one or two factors that the public sometimes might not understand. I am looking at a figure of 48,735 for parliamentary questions processed. It takes a lot of work-----

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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That is just the Healy-Raes.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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-----to get the research on those. There were 37,941 questions with written answers and 977 with oral answers. Apart from secretarial staff, Oireachtas Library and Research staff do an outstanding job. We should be very appreciative of what they do. They are fantastic people and are all so helpful. The ushers look after us so well from morning until night. Many a time I have had to get my office reopened late at night. They never say "Boo", but just go and do it. The cleaners have been very significant over the past two years, especially since the Covid pandemic. We should give a major "Thank you" to them for what they have done. At one stage they were looking for a small area where they could have a cup of tea or relax. It is something we should look after for them because they are extraordinary people. We should acknowledge that here today.

I say well done to the Minister. We will of course support this Bill. I thank him for the open and frank debate we are having and I ask him to continue his good work.

John McGahon (Fine Gael)
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I did not get an opportunity to contribute a couple of weeks ago when the debate on the pay of secretarial assistants was going on. I was not going to contribute to today's debate but I saw my colleague, Senator Buttimer, and others discussing it and I wanted to put my experience on the record. I believe I can speak with authority on this because I was a secretarial assistant 18 months ago. I finished up as a secretarial assistant for the former Leas-Chathaoirleach, Paul Coghlan, who was a wonderful boss. I am sure we can all agree to send our warmest wishes at this present time to Mr. Coghlan, Peggy and their family.

I left my role with Mr. Coghlan in January 2020 and eight weeks later I was elected to the Oireachtas. It was only because Mr. Coghlan was such a good boss was I able to sustain the job because the pay is useless, to be blunt. It was only because I was lucky enough to be a member of a local authority at the same time that I could sustain myself on the two salaries. I have no idea how people living in Dublin, let alone those commuting to Dublin, are able to work in jobs as SAs on the salaries they have. As I look around the Seanad, this is our opportunity to stand up for people who may be forgotten about at times in this House. We see the work they do because they work directly for us. I look around at the 60 Members I am lucky to be in the Seanad with and, with no disrespect to them, not many were former SAs. Senator McGreehan worked for Senator Wilson many years ago and she has similar experiences in the role.

I am speaking from an area of experience. I worked as an SA for three to four years. It is a very tough job to do all by yourself. If a Senator is also trying to run for election to the Dáil, an SA is doing the work of two or three people. It is long overdue that we try to do something for people who are a very valuable part, not only of our offices, but of the fabric of the Oireachtas. It is wrong that in this day and age they continue to be paid at the rate they are. I want to put that on the record purely because I was there in the role. I did it for long enough and I am very lucky to be here. We have the opportunity to try to do something at some stage in the next year. I am glad to be able to say that directly to the Minister.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the Senators for their contributions to the debate. I will be back in the Chamber tomorrow on Committee Stage. I look forward to discussing the issues in some more detail then.

I have heard what everyone has had to say about staff generally in the Oireachtas. I fully concur with all those sentiments. We are very fortunate in the way we are looked after and served by all members of staff. I have heard, in particular, what has been said about SAs. My officials observed the proceedings last week during the Commencement matter on this issue and were very much of the proceedings in the Dáil last week when this Bill went through all Stages. Many Members of that House made similar points and officials are again observing the proceedings here today. What the Senators say matters and it is being heard. I have been a Member of the Oireachtas for more than 14 years and have seen first-hand the extraordinary work our staff do for us.While we have been here over the last hour or so, our phones have been ringing, emails have continued to come in and work has been continuing. Without that support, we simply could not do the job we do. I am glad that a date has now been set for re-engagement at the WRC. The WRC has invited both parties, the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and SIPTU, to come before it on 28 January 2022. The commitment I can give for my own part is that, as Minister, I am there to assist in any way I can, as are my officials. I have asked my officials to be as supportive and facilitative as they possibly can be of a resolution being arrived at here, which is what we all want to see. My role in this issue is clear; it is to consider a proposal that is made to me by the commission. Under section 4 of the Act, the commission makes a proposal to me on terms and conditions, grading and so on and I either give consent or I do not. That is my role and once a proposal is put to me, I will make a prompt decision. The political signal that I sent out last week, which I am happy to reiterate again today, is that I am anxious to see a resolution to this issue. I want to see proposals brought forward as quickly as possible to resolve this issue. That is an important signal and, as I said, my officials stand ready to assist the process in any way they can over the next number of weeks, both in the lead up to the WRC hearing and hopefully, a resolution of the matter at that time.

To add to all of the points that Senators made, another relevant factor is the lack of job security for all of our staff. Many of them will end up for working for one or two terms or, if they are very lucky, three terms. There is a lack of job security there. Democracy matters and we have to stand up for our democracy, fight for it and support it. We also have to support each other and support our staff. I have said as much as I can or should say on that issue. My role is to consider a proposal made by the commission and I look forward to discharging that responsibility in the coming weeks.

I wish to respond to a number of specific questions. Senator Kyne raised the issue of staffing. The current staffing level in the commission stands at 619 full-time equivalents. The increased allocation proposed under this Bill will provide for a phased staffing increase over the period of the envelope to provide for 696 full-time equivalents by 2024, representing an increase of 77, or 12%, over the three years. This is a significant increase but it is ultimately a matter for the commission as to how it allocates its resources over that period of time.

The question was also asked as to whether sufficient resources have been provided under this Bill to resolve the industrial relations issue. That is a very fair question and some context is important here. There has been an underspend for the last number of years. In 2019, there was an underspend of €21.4 million, while in 2020 there was an underspend of €14.8 million. The commission has indicated a further saving of €15 million in 2021 based on current projections. This will bring a forecasted return of some €51 million, or 12%, on the 2019 to 2021 envelope. Obviously, Covid-19 had an impact in some respects, particularly on travel and so on, but when one considers that we are providing an increase from that budget base of over €40 million, or almost 10%, it is clear that the capacity is there to improve even further the level of service that is provided by the commission to all of us and to make appropriate changes in respect of remuneration, terms and conditions, and so on. That is as much as I can say for now. I look forward to being back here tomorrow when we can discuss the issue further.

Mark Wall (Labour)
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When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Mark Wall (Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.