Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank Senator O'Loughlin for proposing this motion. This is one of the initiatives we began this term where issues that affect the various panels and the nominating bodies for the panels are discussed by the Senators on the panels. I again thank Senator O'Loughlin and other colleagues on the administrative panel for putting forward this proposal for discussion.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I move:

That Seanad Éireann calls for action in the area of maternity/paternity leave for county and city councillors.

I thank the Seanad Office, the Cathaoirleach's office and my colleagues on the administrative panel for supporting this motion and co-signing it. I appreciate the help and support of all members of the administrative panel, Senators Wilson, Ahearn, Conway, Moynihan and Ó Donnghaile, in getting this motion to the floor of the House. I thank the Minister of State for being here to listen to the debate on the motion and to take on board what we, collectively, have to say. I also thank the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, who sent me a letter earlier this evening advising me that he hopes to have a meeting soon to see how he could play his part in this regard.

The innovation and addition of the panel motions within the Seanad operation is very welcome. I commend the Cathaoirleach on his leadership in that regard. This is the second such panel and we look forward to many more.

The work of local government is extremely important to all of us and to the lives of all citizens. The decisions made by local councillors ranging from planning to housing to local amenities impact on the lives of everyone who lives within the communities they serve. We must support those who wish to serve, ensure there is diversity with respect to those who have the opportunity to serve and address equality issues within that.

Often we see how the culture and organisation of politics can present barriers to women and, indeed, men, who are the primary carers of children, seeking electoral office. A key barrier is caused by the demand of combining responsibilities with the demands of public life, which tend to require long and frequently antisocial working hours. Those barriers may be reduced by measures which make the role of local representatives more compatible with child rearing responsibilities, particularly the provision of maternity-paternity leave, and by pairing administrative support. etc. To truly reduce the barriers, these measure must enable mothers and fathers to take temporary leave from their role as local representatives with minimal negative consequences either professionally or financially. Other measures can and should be focused on altering the organisation and, ultimately, the culture of politics by, for example, changing the times of meetings, allowing proxy or remote voting, etc. The bottom line is that the lack of proper maternity leave provision for elected members has been identified as a major barrier to attracting women to, and retaining them in, public life. When I refer to maternity leave I am also referring to paternity and adoptive leave.

The Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, showed many of our colleagues around the country that being forced to sacrifice on maternity or family leave is not an acceptable trade-off or an acceptable expectation. Her taking of maternity leave has shown that even at the highest levels of political life maternity leave can be facilitated and must be prioritised. Her maternity leave certainly brought this issue to the attention of the public but the realities of the situation are well known to all of us in this House and to all our colleagues within local authorities.

I commend the tireless work of Councillor Mary Hoade who, during her term as president of the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, spearheaded a comprehensive report entitled Pathway to the Provision of Maternity/Adoptive/ Paternity leave for Local Authority Elected Members. I thank the focus group the AILG put together comprising cross-party councillors, Carly Bailey, Clodagh Higgins, Jane Horgan-Jones, Mairín McGrath, Aoife McCooey and Danielle Twomey. I also reiterate the commitment of the new president of the AILG, Nicholas Crossan, of his support and work in this respect. I am very pleased to support and endorse the recommendations put forward in that report. Those recommendations notably are that there should be an amendment to section 18 of the Local Government Act 2001 to provide for maternity leave as an excused absence from a local authority where members can take maternity-paternity leave without the necessity of a resolution from the elected council, and that their allowance remains.We constantly talk about increasing the diversity of our body politic, and we have imposed welcome reforms, such as the gender quota system. If we truly want to see our political discourse transformed, however, we need to ensure our political apparatus operates in as open and inclusive a way as possible. Access to basic rights, such as maternity and family leave, is a key aspect of this.

I have engaged extensively over recent weeks with councillors from right around the country, by email and telephone. I hosted an online councillor consultation last week. I thank colleagues for their engagement and support in that regard. The message from councillors is very clear: they need to see action in this area. The level of pressure and stress faced by many colleagues around the country, especially those who become parents during the term of their mandate, is very clear. I spoke to a member of a local authority who, just hours after giving birth, had sat upright in her bed to take part remotely in council business concerning a development plan out of fear that a lack of engagement would be used against her by opponents at the next election. She had worried more about packing her laptop bag and ensuring she would be ready to work in hospital after birth than about packing her birthing bag. That is just outrageous but it shows the pressure women are under. Parents get only one opportunity to experience the birth of any child, and they have the right to experience it to the full and to be fully present.

Another point of note was the financial burden placed on many councillors due to the unsociable working hours. Many councillors noted the incredible expense of childcare and late-night babysitting to allow them to attend out-of-hours meetings, both virtually and around their constituencies.

We have all fought tooth and nail to see the recommendations of the Moorhead report implemented. I am proud that Fianna Fáil has played its part in delivering long-overdue reform of conditions and pay for councillors. The remuneration of local authority members is modest, however, and the imposition of high childcare costs puts even more financial pressure on our colleagues.

While new mothers take maternity leave, there should be secretarial support to assist with the workload. At the height of the pandemic, remote attendance and voting were facilitated at statutory meetings of local authorities. An elected member on maternity, paternity or adoptive leave should have this facility continued. Pairing, as done in the Seanad and Dáil, should also be introduced to facilitate this type of leave.

I thank the Oireachtas Library & Research Service for its research on my behalf on 16 European states to determine how they deal with maternity leave. Not all local government systems are the same, and the numbers of people and sizes of areas vary. The competencies and policy areas that fall under the remit of councils vary significantly. There is an obvious difference where there are directly elected mayors. In ten of the 16 states, councillors are considered paid employees for the purposes of remuneration and benefits. Their entitlement to maternity and paternity leave, therefore, is a right under law. In seven of the states, councillors are formally substituted for the duration of their leave. In five of the states, councillors lose their allowances for the duration of the leave. In my view, this is not acceptable given that many make financial sacrifices to be public representatives in the first place. The two best examples of what happens abroad are in Portugal, where councillors may avail of substitution and continue to receive allowances, and the Welsh Assembly, which sets out in law the rights of councillors to take maternity, paternity and parental leave without requiring the formal permission of the council. Ireland should play a leading role and provide an example of best practice to other countries in respect of how to support parents who are also public representatives.

On family leave, I want to mention the real-life experiences of many across society, including elected members of local authorities, in respect of the need to give care to loved ones. Many have family members, be they parents, siblings or children with complex additional needs, who need to be cared for from time to time. If we want to ensure our democracy is truly representative, we need to find a way to support these people in getting and staying involved in the political process.

In my consultation with councillors of all parties and none, their immense pride and dedication to their role, community and job came through very strongly. Politicians are public people. We choose to put ourselves before our peers and to be held to account if elected, but we are also people with the same basic needs and responsibilities as others. We have families, children and parents, and we have bereavements, and we need to ensure that those who are brave enough to step into the arena are supported in doing their very valuable work fully.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I second the motion. I thank the Cathaoirleach for facilitating the sort of debate we are having today. It is very much welcome, and I hope we will continue in this way. I acknowledge the good work of Senator O’Loughlin on this debate and the fact that everyone on the Administrative Panel supports it.

I remember talking to my family at home in the 1980s when my mother was a politician. She had two children when she was a councillor but took no leave from the council at the time. She was asked to run in the 1987 general election, which was in the middle of February, but did not run because she was pregnant and due to have my brother in early February. At that time, it was basically the case that someone who was pregnant could not run. That was my mother’s feeling at the time. Two years later, in 1989, she ran and was elected. The minute she got elected, having more children was just not an option for her. She had four children — four boys — but she would have liked to have more if politics had not prevented her. There was no opportunity at the time to be a mother in the early months. It was so frustrating. Although that was in 1987, essentially nothing has changed in law since. What is new is the perception that something needs to be done. Much of this comes down to the courageous leadership role of the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee. When it was announced that she was pregnant, she did not hesitate in taking six months’ maternity leave, and it and it was the job of everyone else to figure out how it was to be done. She was taking the leave, and that was it. It is important to commend her husband, Paul, also because he took a leadership role from a male perspective in the sense of taking time off to support the family. Everyone will speak about maternity leave for councillors and its importance, but men can play a role in promoting paternity leave for them.

I have one young boy, who was born in December 2019. I was a councillor and candidate for the imminent general election, which happened to be a month later. I did not even consider paternity leave. Even if had been available, I would not even have considered it. The Minister of State has a young family also.The job and the way we perceive the job sometimes dictate that we cannot take any time off. I remember when I was in the delivery room of the hospital when Jimmy was being born. One is still kind of working as well as actually going through this. Men need to take a leadership role. We have a role to play and an opportunity to play in supporting that family network and taking paternity leave. As councillors, we talk about equality all the time but we need to take that role as well. In fairness to the Minister of State, in his first year in office, he made a commitment to support councillors in terms of fair pay and remuneration for the work they do and delivered that on time as promised. This is another element where we can support councillors and that would make a huge difference to so many councillors across the country. I acknowledge the excellent work of the AILG in terms of putting up the proposals. They are very legitimate requests in terms of giving six months leave of absence for maternity and paternity leave with a 50% reduction for the following six months, a third period of six months unpaid leave and secretarial support. These are obvious things that could be supported. I acknowledge the really good work of the AILG on this issue. I look forward to listening to the Minister of State's contribution.

Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
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I pay tribute to Senator O'Loughlin for taking the initiative on this issue as a panel discussion. It is appropriate that we are discussing this issue at this time of night because this is the time that an awful lot of full council meetings take place. On many occasions, I have held many babies in the council chamber and assisted their mothers with newborns outside. It always seemed crazy that when newborns had to sit in a waiting room in a council chamber when they should have been wrapped up at home while their mothers, who were just recovering from childbirth, had to go inside to vote or speak. It is not just one baby I have done that for. There have been many babies, many councillors and many friends of mine. It is the 21st century and local councillors should have the supports they need to have children. I welcome this discussion. I welcome the AILG recommendations and the Bill on the floor of the Dáil from Deputy Cairns, which is a very simple measure to amend the Local Government Act to expand it.

I believe the Bill should be enacted without delay but I have looked at some of the wider issues contained in the AILG report. As somebody who was a city councillor, I know of the huge workload involved and how every single thing is one's responsibility and one's responsibility alone. In here, we have secretarial support that allows us to do our work. I have an office where there is a meeting I must attend but I also have my secretarial assistant, who is on another meeting for me and doing notes for me so that I am able to read and catch up with them. If I was a councillor, I would be doing every single one of those things by myself. One of the better innovations from the UK was the provision of a locum MP for Stella Creasy MP when she was on her first maternity leave who assisted with casework on her behalf. The UK equivalent of SIPO would not let that happen or allow her to do that again. The locum MP did not vote in the UK Parliament but assisted with casework, which allowed Stella Creasy to be able to take maternity leave. She was recently told that she could not take her child to the chamber to breastfeed. She should not be in there. She should not be breastfeeding in the chamber because she should be able to take maternity leave. Later on, if she is coming back to work, there should be breastfeeding facilities.

Attendance is another issue. Every woman should have the right to physically recover from childbirth and spend quality time with her newborn to bond. I welcome the AILG recommendation which calls for new parents to be exempt from the rule that requires members to attend more than 50% to 80% of meetings. We can do much to improve the family-friendly times of councils but this is much more difficult when councillors are holding down full-time jobs. During the pandemic, we managed to employ new technology to allow people to attend remotely and to be able to vote remotely. If we can do that because of Covid and to keep us all safe, we can do it to give dignity back to mothers, who should be physically recovering from childbirth, and allow them to breastfeed their children and to be fully engaged with the council after maternity leave is up. Many people breastfeed beyond a year or two years. If there are breastfeeding mothers who need to be facilitated, we should employ all the tools available to us.

This is a very timely discussion. It is particularly timely when it comes to so many councillors around the country who have said that they cannot continue with the job because they do not have the support they need. Could the Minister of State have a look at providing secretarial support and the UK example of a locum MP for women going on maternity leave? That was a really good innovation. Unfortunately, the UK discontinued it but it was a good way of ensuring that people have representation and young mothers have the dignity of being allowed to recover from childbirth.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I commend Senator O'Loughlin for this excellent initiative. As somebody who shares the panel with us, I know the Cathaoirleach is very much committed to achieving as much as we can for the community that elects us to the Seanad. It is very appropriate that the Minister of State is here. We have been in government for a year and a half. During that period of time, we have seen the package of benefits for councillors and the Moorhead report. The additions have come about because the Minister of State has been completely committed to resolving the issue. This is a first step. As we move on, there is so much more that needs to be done. It speaks volumes that the issue of maternity leave has not been addressed up to now. For some reason, female politicians do not require maternity leave, be they Ministers, Deputies, Senators or councillors. Thankfully, within the past 12 months, we have seen the Minister for Justice take her maternity leave, which set an example that, hopefully, will percolate down the political chain. We have seen in recent times that the situation is a lot more fluid that it was. People are choosing to go into politics but when they see the terms and conditions presented to them, some of them are choosing to leave. We need to look at the reasons for that. The lack of maternity leave is a major roadblock to young females getting involved in local politics. It is shocking to think that those who decide to get involved in local politics and become councillors do not have the benefit of maternity leave. This issue needs to be addressed. I urge the Minister of State to look at it as part of a further suite of measures to make local politics and local democracy attractive. I would also urge him to look at paternity leave because young men who have been fortunate to have partners who have had children should be able to take some paternity leave.

I agree with what has been said about the suite of non-financial supports that need to be provided to local councillors.I would start by saying that councillors should, if they deem it necessary, have access to legal advice that is independent from the council law officer. If they feel that there is an issue on which they need to procure independent legal advice, they should be able to do so and it should be paid for if it is legal advice that is required in the course of their work. Similarly, if they need to get engineering or planning advice in engaging in the local development plan and council development plan process, they should have access to it. When I became a councillor in 2004, I was straight into dealing with the Clare county development plan and the north Clare local area plan. It was technical, difficult and challenging. Certainly, if independent engineering and planning advice had been available at the time, it would have equipped me better to do my job. To this day, that independent advice is not provided. Councillors are reliant on the expertise that is provided by council executives that have their own agendas.

I believe that a pool of secretarial assistants should be available to councillors, should they wish to avail of it. That is what is expected in any modern workplace. That should be available to all councillors. In addition, if expert financial advice is required at budget time, it should be available to councillors so they can consider the budget they are about to adopt to the degree they feel they need to. If part of that process means that they need to access independent financial advice, that should be available. These are things that should be available to our councillors up and down the country to help them do their jobs. Money and resources are very important because people need to be paid a living wage to do the job, but the supports to help them do the job are equally important. I believe that the measures I mentioned would not cost a fortune but would certainly equip our councillors to do the job. They should be provided with financial, legal, planning and secretarial resources if they need them. Finally, if our councillors need to publish reports, there should be a facility to help them draft reports and submissions. These resources should be provided. Councillors will not materially benefit financially from such a suite of measures, but they will be able to do a better job and stand over the job they do because it will be done with the best possible advice.

I thank the Minister of State for what he has done to date. I know he is committed to ensuring that we have the best equipped councillors in the world to operate and run our local government and authorities.

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Áire Stáit agus roimh an rún atá os ár gcomhair. I welcome the Minister of State and indicate my own support for the motion. I am delighted to co-sign it with colleagues from the administrative panel. I also note the hard work and dedication of Senator O'Loughlin in bringing the motion before us, and the initiatives she has taken, such as last week's engagement with councillors which, unfortunately, I was unable to attend because I had commitments in the Chamber. I know that it was of great benefit and use to all in attendance.

I want to make clear Sinn Féin's position on the issue of maternity and paternity leave. The history of the issue in recent years is reflected in a number of debates in the Dáil and published documents like the report of the Forum on a Family Friendly and Inclusive Parliament. Clarity, as well as consistency, is required to resolve the matter satisfactorily to meet the needs of the elected representatives affected. I believe that elected representatives, whether they are Deputies, Seanadoirí or councillors, should be entitled to paid maternity and paternity leave. The Oireachtas and local authorities must ensure that the necessary workplace supports are in place to make this entitlement meaningful. Elected representatives should be afforded the same maternity, paternity, parental and adoption leave entitlements as other workers.

At a time like now, when the nation is in the eye of Storm Barra and people are stressed about the storm and its consequences, elected representatives, especially councillors, will be on the streets and the front line, helping people and getting in touch with local councils and the relevant statutory agencies on their behalf, fulfilling their obligations as representatives elected by the people. We saw, and other colleagues have referenced, how councillors - again, on the front line - stepped up during the pandemic, not least in the immediate early days when we saw them out and about involved in the delivery of food parcels where it was safe, checking on elderly and vulnerable neighbours. On many occasions, they were the link. We, and the Government, relied on them to deliver messages and information in very uncertain times. Many of them were asked to step up, as they very often do. Local, county and city councillors did indeed step up.

We are coming into the winter again and, unfortunately, the reality is that Storm Barra will probably not be the last adverse weather event we will encounter. Councillors will be out there again, doing what they do. That is on top of everything else that they are expected to do from day to day in their lives as elected representatives, and indeed, in their lives as workers. My experience of being a city councillor in Belfast was certainly vast and in many ways, unique. I know that perhaps our circumstances are slightly different, but I know that people across the Chamber who have been in local government will be able to relate to my experiences. In my own circumstances, I could be at a council committee meeting one day, and the next day, I could be standing on the front line of a contentious parade, dealing with riot police. There is an expectation that a councillor will be at all places at all times. I know everyone can relate to that expectation and that work. I have no doubt that even with the provision of maternity and paternity leave, given the public service spirit and nature of local councillors, many of them will not actually stop working. They will probably carry on. However, it is about providing the reassurance and the support to councillors so they know they can step away and have the space to do so, and minimise the work and expectation that is on them. We all know it is a demanding job. Councillors should be entitled to the same rights and protections as other workers. The irony is that many councillors find themselves lobbying on behalf of workers' on rights issues. That is the nature of the work. Many people come to their local council if they are dealing with such issues. Many councillors go in, work hard, advocate and lobby on rights to be afforded to others that they are ultimately denied themselves.

Although today's debate is focused on leave for councillors, I want to touch on the wider arena to get across the importance of this issue being resolved speedily and effectively. Across Europe in 22 chambers, the vast majority of which are members of the EU, provision is made for maternity, paternity and adoption leave, childcare and child protection for elected representatives. Therefore, the issue we are debating here is a live one across Europe. Each of the parliaments has introduced various schemes particular to their own needs. All of the schemes have one objective in mind, which is to ensure that the parliamentary system is family-friendly, and not only family-friendly, but also woman- or mother-friendly. That will make it easier for women to stand for elected office to the council, the Dáil, the Assembly in the North, the Seanad and the European Parliament. I would like to commend the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach for producing the report of the Forum on a Family Friendly and Inclusive Parliament. The report addresses the need for maternity and paternity leave to be made available to elected representatives in the Oireachtas as part of a wider programme of reform to make the Oireachtas a family-friendly and inclusive institution. The observations the report makes on the issue of leave apply to councillors as well. The following line from the report is a very pertinent one that is easily recognised by all elected representatives: "After sitting hours, the lack of an equivalent to maternity, paternity, sick leave and other protective leaves for Members, is the second greatest impediment to a family friendly, inclusive and gender-sensitive working environment for Members". Public life must be altered to reflect the fact that more and more women are being elected at all levels. The remaining barriers that are curtailing women who are already elected, and those who are interested in being elected, must be removed.

I have a fair bit more to say, but I will finish on the following point, with the indulgence of the Chair. The key recommendations from the Citizens' Assembly on gender equality included: the introduction of maternity leave for all representatives by the end of 2022; the extension of gender quotas for party candidates to local, Seanad and European elections; an increase in penalties for parties that do not meet the quota; and an increase in the threshold from 30% to 40% for both women and men.The issue of maternity and paternity leave requires urgent attention, none more so than for our city and county councillors.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to make Members aware that, in this unique format, it is the panel members who go first. Unlike all other motions and debates, this motion is signed by all the panel members from different parties. Therefore, like in committees, they are the ones who go first, and then we revert to the rota.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I commend my colleagues, who are members of a panel with which you are quite familiar, a Chathaoirligh, on bringing forward this proposal. This is a useful debate. This Chamber works in a very collegial way, and having debates on these issues that have cross-party support is an important way of doing business. It speaks to the broader principle of the importance of our getting good people into local government.

I was very struck by a series of interviews "This Week" on RTÉ Radio 1 did around the time of the local elections in 2019 with those who had been first-time councillors, some of whom were very capable young councillors and who, after one term, had decided to quit. In most jobs, if you decide to quit, there is an exit interview. There is no real formal exit interview process in politics, bar, obviously, the electorate making its decision. Questions have to be asked about the many people deciding to quit after one term. One of the reasons is that the workload continues to increase. It is funny that in this Chamber we talk about the right to switch off. Councillors and other elected representatives in many ways do not have the right to switch off. Because of social media in particular, they are switched on 24-7 and there is an expectation that they respond immediately. We have seen the increase in online abuse.

Another reason is the question of parental leave and support for those who wish to become parents while serving in elected office. We have to rethink radically the career of the councillor. It cannot be an either-or in that people have to choose between spending time having children and bringing up a family and devoting themselves to the local community, no more than it should be a challenge for national politicians. Senator Ó Donnghaile is correct that this is a live debate in many other European countries. Sweden is possibly the most progressive in that all elected representatives are entitled to 480 days' paid leave and 90 days can be allocated to each parent. Similar moves have been made in Canada and other jurisdictions.

We need to consider this in the context of the electoral commission legislation coming forward. Could we consider not just parental leave but also substitute members stepping in to do the work? Often there is a fear on the part of elected members that if they take time out, their rivals will gain ground on them and they will have a huge workload when they come back. They ask how they will be able to catch up in those circumstances. Therefore, in the same way that if somebody steps down from a local authority, his or her political party or somebody else nominates somebody to take his or her place, we should have a provision that, during parental leave, a substitute member may be put in place on the part of that elected representative. That could apply in a broad range of areas, for instance, when it comes to compassionate leave or somebody who has health difficulties. People should not feel they have to sacrifice their entire lives outside of politics to be able to go on. I think the Minister is very much committed to real local government reform, but that has to be about more than just looking at the structures and the powers. It has to be about how we can ensure that we have a diverse, representative local and national parliament and that we get the best people and as diverse a group of people as possible into politics. That includes ensuring we have family-friendly measures and parental leave and ensuring that if people go on parental leave, they in no way feel their political careers will suffer as a result.

I will make just one other point. It is a more general point about these Houses. We often talk about a family-friendly environment. It is completely unfair, not just on elected Members but also on the staff, that the Houses of the Oireachtas sit late into the night, by which I mean after 9 p.m. or 10 p.m.. In addition, after a long day's work, people are cranky and not necessarily as focused. We, therefore, need to reconsider seriously the sitting hours of these Houses. They are not conducive to good legislation or family-friendly. This is a welcome debate, however, and I commend the proposers of the motion.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming before the House and thank the members of the administrative panel for bringing forward this timely debate. Thinking back to my time on the council, young females never came forward. While we had young males, there were never young females. Much of the time they said it just was not a family-friendly choice. That is obvious from what is coming out in this debate. It is time we encouraged young females to get involved. I am not taking from males, and I know the Minister of State is committed to this. He set up a committee not so long ago. Maybe he could tell us how that is going and if it is considering options. New Zealand has set a very good, robust example in respect of young females and maternity leave for female councillors. This all came to a head when a Green Party councillor resigned back in February. She cited the fact that being a councillor was not family-friendly and that she had time off from work but not from the council. That highlighted the whole issue.

I pay compliment to the councillors and the AILG, which has been involved in this. They have been looking for these measures for quite a while. It is time we looked at the sitting hours of council meetings. In some councils the sittings are in the evening. Maybe councillors' respective husbands or partners or whatever are still at work. Some of the councils sit early in the morning. The life of a councillor has become so busy. It is a full-time job, as has been said. Especially when a baby is born, the best time is the first couple of weeks, when the mother and other family members spend that time with him or her. It is time we acted on this. We need to encourage more female participation in local government. Unless we introduce maternity leave, we are going the wrong way about it. I know that the Minister of State is committed to that and I look forward to hearing what he has to say. I thank him for his time and thank everyone who brought forward the motion.

Emer Currie (Fine Gael)
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I commend my colleague, Senator O'Loughlin, on bringing forward the motion, not just in her role on the administrative panel but also as chair of the women's caucus. She does a fabulous job.

Politics, as we know, is not a normal job. Public service does not start at nine, finish at six and come with leave entitlements. Our families know and accept that, all too often, politics comes first, but there are times when it should not and cannot. However, we allow ourselves to be part of a culture in which women who have just had children, a life-altering event in our lives, feel they have no choice but to protect and mind their seats when they should be protecting and minding their newborn babies.I would not underestimate the inner conflict that causes. The last thing I want to do is have us introduce provisions that support councillors with leave and they can say that it is great but it is for somebody else and not for them because they fear losing ground to somebody else, losing face, being judged or allowing competitors to take advantage. There must be choice and flexibility in what we bring forward so people can find what works for them. As somebody has said, that may be that such people continue to work with a support network behind them.

I commend the Association of Irish Local Government proposal to amend section 18 of the Local Government Act 2001, which seems the way to go. The people can decide themselves how long they wish to take with full remuneration for the first six months, 50% up to a year and unpaid if they decide to go to 18 months. Vouched expenses for those who are still working should be available and the possibility of remote attendance from here on is a must. People should be able to vote remotely so those who choose to keep working do not need to bring newborn babies into a chamber and men on paternity leave are not being pulled away from forming a support network. Pairing should be part of this process but it does not work in all councils. It would be interesting to give the option of a substitute to people for the full period, although not everybody would be comfortable with that. The most impactful action we could take would be to give administrative and secretarial support so the work could still come from the councillor but it is done through the office.

I also have another suggestion, which is that councillors should be able to decide not to take maternity leave in full at that time. They may have just been elected or perhaps an election is upcoming. Such people could take a month and then be able to take five months at a later stage. That should not be interrupted by the term and there should be a time-specific period in which they can avail of maternity leave. They should have options similar to employees who are not officeholders, such as for parental and unpaid leave as well.

It is my first time speaking in the House since my father passed away. I wanted to come because this is about life-altering leave. I thank the people working behind the scenes for me during my bereavement leave. I have two fantastic secretarial assistants who job-share, Ms Geraldine Hogan and Ms Evie Sammon. They were able to keep me going and gave me peace of mind when I was trying to find peace with what happened as well. I was paired in the House. One cannot underestimate that kind of support. I really miss him and I feel pride and loss in equal measure. I thank everybody for the kind words they said in this House, outside this House and in the media to me. I thank the people who turned up and gave me the support I needed. He was an uncomplicated, brilliant Irishman and father. I will be proud of him every day for the rest of my life.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Senator. You summed it up. He was an amazing Irishman and did extraordinary things when called upon. He could have and did suffer serious consequences because of his bravery.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House. First, I thank my colleagues on the administrative panel for bringing this motion before us. I also thank the Minister of State for delivering for city and county councillors throughout this country over the past year and half in government. I appreciate the lengths gone to to recognise the value they bring to local government, and we made their pay almost a living wage.

We must be realistic. It is all very well saying we would love to see these recommendations realised but we must be realistic in telling women what this job entails and the demands put on one's life. When in politics, people are open to the public 24-7. We might not like to be but, unfortunately, we are. It is all about trying to protect one's seat and position. I recently had an illness and I was only out of theatre before I was online responding to people. We are all very conscious of the role we have as public representatives but we do not give ourselves time out to even recuperate after operations. It is really important the recommendations put forward today, particularly the work of the AILG, is listened to by the Minister of State. He should take on board these eight recommendations.

I will read some of them for the Minister of State. The first is there should be, "Amendment to section 18 of the Local Government Act 2001 to provide for maternity leave as an excused absence from a local authority and where elected members can take maternity leave without the necessity of a resolution from the elected council and therefore it will eliminate any risk of an elected member having deemed to have resigned [the] seat". The second recommendation is a "Solution to provide paid maternity leave for elected members would be to provide for no reduction in our members' remuneration payment for the first six months of absence for maternity/adoptive/paternity leave, a 50% reduction in [the] payment for the subsequent six months and no payment thereafter up to the maximum of 18 months' absence".

The third recommendation is that, "The provision of secretarial support has been identified as a necessary aid for members taking maternity leave". The fourth is that, "Consideration needs to be given to exempting the attendance rule requirement for payment of the annual expenses allowance for members on maternity leave to ensure payment of this allowance to fund the cost of additional administrative/secretarial support". The fifth recommendation is, "Examining meeting times, duration and appropriate flexibility with scheduling meetings to accommodate elected members on maternity leave". The sixth is, "Continued facility of remote attendance and voting at statutory meetings". This was absolutely crucial during the pandemic and it would be a very welcome move to continue that.

The sixth recommendation is that "Consideration [...] be given for the introduction of a voting pairing system". This works really well in here and there is absolutely no reason it cannot work in local government. It is something we should really push for. The next recommendation is, "The option of a substitute/replacement system would be desirable for a member who would wish to avail of it in order to take a complete break while on maternity leave". That could present problems but I do not believe it will. The public are very forgiving and understanding of what it takes to make it into local government. I know this best of all because I ran in two areas but I could only take one seat. Therefore, the person in the second seat was somebody I nominated. The people trusted me to be able to put somebody into the position who would work for them in my absence. It can work if we have the right person and the seat can be handed back after the time is up.

We recently saw the introduction of expenses for councillors of €5,200. Some of the councillors have wondered if they could use some of that for childcare. All the criteria for drawing down that allowance have not been published.

Babies having parents around in the first year of their lives is really important. The possibility of maternity and paternity leave is really important for young babies and children. It is really important for us to look at best practice across the EU. We should do whatever that best practice is. Could we consider compassionate leave for people with miscarriages or stillbirths, as this is important? Perhaps that could be sorted out in some part of the legislation. Some people go full term but lose their baby very soon after birth or have a late miscarriage.

We must make this process more family-friendly. We must ensure we can get young people into politics and we want to keep them there. I have seen so many young women coming in over the years and they are gone. I might see them breastfeeding a child and six months later they do not run again in local elections.We want those young women to stay, so we need to create an environment that will be good for them. We need to pay them right and ensure they have the appropriate resources behind them, and I think the Minister of State will do that. He will review this in a few months and ensure these recommendations are met.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on the work he has done on the restructuring of facilities and payments for local authority members. I thank the Cathaoirleach for bringing forward the provision whereby panel-elected Senators can table a motion. It is a great idea because, in this case, more than likely, the motion has had cross-party support from the moment it was put on the Order Paper. Given the five panels in the House, it is a great idea. The Seanad was set up in the first instance in order that educational panels could jointly bring forward motions. Finally, I thank and congratulate the Senators who tabled the motion, namely, Senators O'Loughlin, Wilson, Ahearn, Conway, Moynihan and Ó Donnghaile. It is a great initiative and I welcome it.

It has been almost 20 years since I was a councillor and there have been some huge changes in those 20 years. At that time, there were town councils and county councils. The former dealt mainly with larger towns and so on, while the latter deal with more rural areas and rural towns. The issues, too, were completely different back then. While there were some housing loans and issues like that then too, today it is completely different because housing is a bigger issue altogether. Planning is also a different, bigger issue because if someone applies for planning permission today, it could well be five years before the project comes to fruition. Councillors have to deal with all that, as well as many social issues. I welcome what the Minister of State has done for councillors thus far. It was unprecedented and it took much courage on his part to raise those issues, given that councillors' pay is not a popular issue.

Moreover, the areas covered by the local authorities are much larger than they were in my time. Councillors represent a larger hinterland and bigger populations, and in that regard, they face different issues. I agreed with Senator Conway when he suggested legal advice be provided to councillors. They are completely on their own. They are sole traders, whether we like it or not, regardless of whether we introduce maternity or paternity leave for them. A councillor is a sole trader and is on his or her own. Issues can arise in respect of legalities and it is only right, in line with the proposal made by Senator Conway, that they would have legal advice available to them. It is a lonely place for a councillor on his or her own, without legal advice and having to dig deep into his or her own pocket, as many councillors have had to do to protect their good name, even though many of them win their cases.

I do not fully agree with Senator Malcolm Byrne’s points. I think there would be problems if a person was directly appointed in somebody's place at a council meeting. I could foresee legal issues there, particularly if a county development plan was in place. It is a document with much legal weight and that could cause great problems. As other Senators outlined, secretarial services should be the least councillors get. They should be able to conduct their meetings on Zoom or whatever medium is in order. There should be a facility whereby there could be some councillors in the chamber and others on Zoom who are on maternity or paternity leave. That is the least we should expect.

The Minister of State is a very capable man and I know he will take a serious look at the problems councillors will face over the next 20 years. They will face many problems and they need those supports. They need to be able to attend meetings, whether in person or through Zoom, because they have to be up to speed and the only way they can be is by attending them. It is all well and good to read the minutes of meetings and all the documentation that is sent to councillors, but when they are in the chamber listening to other councillors, they can learn an awful lot. That is why secretarial services are the way forward and they should have the other facilities as well, such as legal advice and so forth.

Frances Black (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State. I thank my colleague Senator O'Loughlin and all those on the administrative panel for introducing this topic for debate. I thank also the Cathaoirleach for introducing this additional format whereby we can discuss and debate matters of importance in this House.

The matter of providing for maternity and paternity leave for county and city councillors is vital. That we are even in the position to debate the issue in this way is almost disappointing. In this day and age, you would assume this is already there for councillors. That said, I welcome the opportunity to discuss this important issue with my colleagues and I hope we will see progress in this area in the not-too-distant future. I agree with my colleague Senator Malcolm Byrne about the irony of this debate being scheduled at what is an unfriendly time for parents and families. Senators who are parents have spoken during the debate and there are also the staff who are working in the House. We need to do more to ensure we improve representation in politics in Ireland in general, and making the business of both Houses a little more family-friendly would surely be a good place to start.

It is brilliant that two female legislators have taken maternity leave in the current legislative term. I commend the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, and my Civil Engagement Group colleague Senator Flynn on leading the charge in this way and paving the way for more women to take maternity leave while in elected office. Even so, we should not have to commend individual women or men on taking maternity or paternity leave. It should be provided for each elected representative as standard to ensure we will support our elected representatives in starting or growing their family. The current system, wherein there is no formal provision for maternity or paternity leave, is not only an issue for our elected representatives but also a major barrier to entry for politics for many people, especially women.

Ireland is often referred to as a setter of standards in regard to the legal provision of maternity and paternity leave and of maternity and paternity benefit, but what does it say about us that we do not make the same provisions for those entrusted with the responsibility for making our laws and policies and overseeing the provision of our public services? It is an anomaly that needs to be urgently addressed. At present, councillors in our local authorities who wish to take maternity or paternity leave must do so under the provisions of section 18 of the Local Government Act 2001. My interpretation of this provision is it permits a six-month leave of absence in the event of an illness or another reason in good faith. This period of six months can be extended by resolution on two occasions, although I understand councillors receive a 50% reduction in their pay during this time. While it is positive that a workaround provides for councillors to take this paid leave of absence for six months, making an explicit provision for maternity and paternity leave would demonstrate we welcome a diverse range of individuals into political life in Ireland. Furthermore, while it is welcome the six-month period can be extended, I do not agree with elected representatives, especially young women, having to seek permission to take extended parental leave.

As for remuneration, it is welcome that a councillor's pay is unaffected in the first period of six months in which he or she takes leave, but we must acknowledge councillors are not well paid in the first instance, earning less than the living wage for what is a really important job. Councillors have access to an additional allowance budget, but mothers or fathers taking parental leave will see their allowances reduce significantly due to the fact they are unlikely to fulfil the attendance requirements for this allowance.Councillors who take parental leave are placed at a financial disadvantage and this is extremely problematic in terms of pay parity between existing elected representatives. It also creates a significant barrier to entry into local government as only certain people can afford to run for office. This means we do not get the diverse representation we require in local government and the voices of minority groups are not represented on many county and city councils. At present only 37 of 160 Dáil Deputies are women. We are doing a little better in terms of representation in the Seanad, where 23 of 60 Members are women. In our local authorities, only 20.6% of councillors are women. There is such value and importance in promoting the voices of women in national and local politics. Saying to young women in Ireland that they can have a role in public life while rearing a family will go some distance towards ensuring that more female voices are heard in our political spaces.

I welcome the publication of the report on the provision of maternity and paternity leave for elected members by local government by the Association of Irish Local Government. I endorse each of the recommendations it makes. We should make explicit provision for parental leave, ensure financial stability for new parents and adjust the work of our local authorities to ensure that it is better suited to new parents and families. The work of local government is important to parents and families, to our local communities and our society as a whole. It can only be improved on by creating more space for diverse voices. I thank my colleagues for introducing this important matter this evening and look forward to hearing the response from the Minister of State on how we can promote more diverse representation in political life in Ireland, especially through the provision of maternity and paternity leave. I also agree with Members who have said that councillors could do with more secretarial support.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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I welcome this debate. I have been listening to what Senators have had to say and agree wholeheartedly with their comments. Ironically this is the very first issue I raised as a Senator after my election in the summer of 2020. I raised the issue because when I went out to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council for the meeting at which the seat I had occupied was being filled by the co-option of Councillor Maurice Dockrell, I met Councillor Lorraine Hall, who had just had a baby, Conor. He was with her in the meeting, which took place not in the chamber but in the cold, draughty ferry terminal at Dún Laoghaire. Because of Covid they were not able to meet in the chamber at that time. There was no remote working facility and no facility to accommodate her with a young son. She still had to attend in person. It struck me that it was absolutely archaic to be in that position. I raised the matter 18 months ago or more. I am certainly delighted to see the debate happening today. It is, however, ridiculous that we are this long in and still have no action on this issue.

I also agree with what has been said about the general approach to local government and the need to provide more facilities, supports and generally more updated attitudes towards local government. I have also noted on many occasions in this Chamber the need to increase the powers and responsibilities of local authority members. This is a key aspect of being a councillor. We talk all the time about the importance of local government. It enjoys a particular position in Article 28A of the Constitution. It is recognised as being a vital part of the government of this country. I say that because it is constitutionally and legally the case. With no disrespect to the Minister of State, who has made great strides in his position, central government in Ireland over the last 20 years has had a very regressive approach to local government and has stripped away successive powers from members of local government.

I refer to the elected councillors who actually go out, knock on doors and ask people what their opinions are. The officials on the council, the executive, are never going to knock on a door and ask somebody what they think. Very often we see the opposite of what the public wants being effected by officials when in fact the councillors were opposing it but did not have the power to stop it. We talk about the importance of having people get involved in local politics and particularly about young blood in local politics and the importance of bringing young people into elected politics where they can contribute to their communities and work for their neighbours, friends and local community. Young people are the very people who are affected by maternity and paternity leave. The profile of local government is, on average, an older group than society as a whole. I think of my young colleagues on councils, particularly women, people like Councillor Bridin Murphy in Wexford and Councillor Evie Sammon in Kildare, who works here in the Houses of the Oireachtas, and Councillor Clodagh Higgins in Galway. They are there throughout the country but they are in the minority, young people who have gone out and got involved. They are in the minority because there is very little there to facilitate them. If they do decide to have a family they are in a very difficult position, just as Councillor Lorraine Hall was at that meeting of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council in July or June of 2020.

As to what can be done about it, it is a really easy fix. It is not about money or providing for the facility to leave the position. The reality is that an elected person is not an employee. Elected representatives do have the power to step back from their positions and take up to six months out. However, that is not what elected people do. They do not run for office and put their lives on hold to become councillors and invest all the time, effort, money and resources that it takes to get elected, only to walk away and sit elsewhere for six months looking after a child, rewarding though that may be. They do not do that. Instead they take on all the burdens of the world and try to do everything at once. That compromises their ability to be a parent as much as it does their ability to be a councillor. They cannot do both things to 100%.

It is not even about that. It is about putting in place a facility to replace that person in the short term. It is about having a modern, progressive system, not unlike the European Parliament, that allows a list of substitutes. When I was on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, in order to replace independent councillors we required them to give a list of three names, sealed, to the executive, so that if they vacated the seat for whatever reason there was a list of people to whom that seat would then be offered in circumstances where the Local Government Act did not cover the scenario. Something similar for parents and prospective parents would make absolute sense. The councillor can step back and in his or her place there is a person who can step in, somebody the councillor trusts and knows will do a good job, possibly even somebody who is known to the electorate beforehand. We could do it in the same way that there is a list of alternates for the European Parliament. We could notify the electorate at the time of the election. Either way, it would provide for an opportunity for a councillor to step back, take seriously and dedicate themselves to their role as a parent but also know that their role as a councillor and representative of their local community is not compromised. There is a simple legislative solution to this. It is something we should be doing as a matter of priority.

The Minister of State has a very positive, reformist attitude to local government. I hope he will take the message back from this Chamber to the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, that this is what we would like to see. We say that on behalf of councillors around the country. Let us be modern and progressive. Let us change the system and recognise the fact that if we want young people to contribute in politics, we need also to facilitate their right to have a family.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank those who have contributed to the debate, and Senator O'Loughlin and her colleagues for proposing the debate, which is very important in terms of where we are in the process. I want to reflect on where we were on July 2020 when I took office as Minister of State with responsibility for local government and planning. We had the local elections in 2014 where around 21% of candidates elected were women. In 2019 that increased marginally to 24%, which was still significantly out of kilter with the European average of about 35%. In 2019 the number of women candidates who came forward was 562. Remarkably, that was only 28% of all the candidates who ran in the 2019 local elections. That speaks volumes in itself. Before I had the privilege of being elected to the Dáil in 2009 I was a councillor. I served as cathaoirleach of my county council in Westmeath and as chairperson of the old town council, which was abolished. I want to be absolutely certain that I have done everything to ensure that society in general is governed by the chamber that serves it and is reflected like a mirror image by that chamber in terms of gender and diversity.That is why I really want to implement policies that make a reality. When I entered office, I met with the National Women's Council of Ireland and engaged with the AILG and LAMA, a number of elected representatives and Women for Election. I heard their views about what the most pressing issues were in attracting women into politics for the betterment of society. As we all know, and we saw this through the pandemic, the more women we have to reflect society in the decision-making process, the better those decisions will be.

The current position is that councillors are officeholders. They are not employees and, therefore, are not covered by the framework of maternity supports in legislation. As was pointed out, the Local Government Act 2001 provides no specific clause for maternity leave. If someone goes on maternity leave, gets sick or is otherwise unable to perform his or her council work, if he or she does not get a vote or resolution passed by the council for six consecutive periods, he or she is deemed to have vacated his or her seat. This is exceptionally crude. What is more unacceptable and abhorrent to me as Minister of State with responsibility for local government is the fact that a young mother would have to seek a resolution or approval from her peers to look after a newborn infant. This is totally unacceptable in a modern democracy and I have made that very clear from the day I entered office and had the privilege of doing this job.

The first issue on my desk was getting the Moorhead report sorted. There was an exceptional debate in this Chamber that assisted me in trying to push that agenda of reform. In 2014, the number of local authorities reduced from 114 to 31 covering larger geographical areas, which is another major challenge for elected representatives trying to serve those communities. In addition, 80 town councils were dissolved and, therefore, a layer of local government was taken away. Again, this meant more work for county councillors. We were done one third in the number of councillors who were brought back under the revised slimmed down programme. What struck me was that in terms of the work councillors must do outside the chamber, there are 360 statutory bodies that for which they have nominations and 400 non-statutory external bodies provide approximately 2,140 nominations that are outside their work within the chamber. This shows the gravity of work our local authority members must do on a daily basis. Each local authority has more than 350 affiliated community and voluntary groups that work through the PPN network that local authority members provide support to working long hours every day. This is why at that juncture, I was very keen to get the Moorhead report over the line and get that increase that is now linked to the local authority grade. As of last October, in line with the public service, they got their increase and will get others in February and next October. This means their pay is linked to public service agreements, as it should be.

After getting the pay element of the Moorhead report agreed, my next job was to set up a group to look at the non-pay elements of the report, which I did quite quickly. It concerned how councillors do their business, the supports they have, the way meetings are run and how a better environment can be created for councillors to discharge their duties. In March 2020, the major concern I had concerned maternity leave and, therefore, I established a subgroup of that group that was comprised entirely of female councillors from across the country from every party and none, engaged with all the general secretaries of the different parties and heard their views. The subgroup met a number of times both with and without me. One thing that was very clear was that it is not one-size-fits-all. Some people say there is a very simple solution that involves amending legislation. Many fears women have were rightly articulated by Senators about what happens if they vacate their seat or take maternity leave. For example, if someone says we should just amend the Local Government Act 2001 and provide for maternity leave, what happens if a woman is at home caring for her newborn and a significant vote is going through the local authority such as a material contravention that is very tight? Is she to feel under pressure to be in the chamber if that vote is very tight? Do we expect her to do work, study and research the motion going through the local authority? We must consider all these issues when we are formulating the response. The easiest thing to do is to amend legislation and put maternity leave on the Statute Book but nobody might use it. That was my biggest concern from the outset. I want to resolve that aspect with their support and try to help the women who are going through this. Many women in the group have had babies recently and it is important to hear their experiences because lived experiences are so important in this debate. This is why we are trying to formulate a set of proposals on the back of that.

Three interwoven Acts will resolve this problem - the Local Government Act 2001, the Maternity Protection Act 1994 and the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005. This involves three Departments with which we must work. I have liaised with the Attorney General's office and those Departments over the past number of months. I expect to bring proposals for approval to Cabinet with a suite of measures that in the first instance will be supports for councillors and, second, will provide legislative change. I want to be very clear. One thing I have learned since I entered office in 2020 is that being given deadlines over which I have no control is a very dangerous business. We are trying our best to get them through as quickly as possible. I am relying on the work of the Attorney General and the co-operation of the various different Departments, which I am getting, and, in turn, getting the best proposed legislative change but, equally, I must get the supports because they are so important, as was articulated in the debate because we really need to have the supports for our local authority members. In terms of engaging with different women's groups, as Senator O'Loughlin will know as chairperson of the caucus here, we have worked and supported the caucus network through local authority members and made it more useful for them in the work they can carry out. We have met many women's groups. It was great to have the pleasure of seeing Michelle Maher and her team take first prize at the European Innovation in Politics Awards in Brussels. Europe was amazed at the work that group did in getting women interested in politics. We must look beyond this. This is about trying to get women who may not want to run for election involved. It could be a campaign manager or backroom member of a team for another woman who is going for election. We want to see our society reflected in our local authority chambers. This is what we need to work collectively to do and I am committed to that. What really bothers me is any woman having to seek permission to go on maternity leave or get extended leave. That is totally unacceptable.

Issues such as sick leave were mentioned. We are trying to look at this in the round. Hopefully, over the next few months, we can say that we have achieved an awful lot of work in local government to make it a better place for councillors to operate in, that they have better supports to do their work and that we have all worked together to do that because I do value the work of all Senators. All of them have been positive in terms of suggestions throughout this process. We will continue to work with and update Members as we, hopefully, progress to a proposal to go to Cabinet. It is imminent but when deadlines are given in politics, sometimes they are not met and sometimes they are beyond a Minister's control but we are working to achieve that. I hope I have covered the matter and, again, I thank Senators for raising these issues.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thought I missed the boat. I was at another meeting online. I am really happy that I am able to contribute.I thank every Senator from the administrative panel. I am aware that the Cathaoirleach's name is precluded from being officially on the motion, but I do not doubt that he would be the first to sign it, if he was not in his position. Equally, it is great to see Senators O'Loughlin and Ahearn, and everybody else involved on the administrative panel, putting it forward, and it is the correct panel to do so.

I rise as somebody who was a councillor for 12 and a half years. Indeed, I and the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, were chair and vice-chair of the HSE forum for south Dublin and mid-Leinster for a period of time. We worked well together. No Minister could have as indepth a knowledge of the work involved in being a councillor, and of being a young councillor with a young family. If I am correct, I believe it was December 2015 when the Minister of State, who was then a councillor, rang me to tell me that his wife was just about to have a baby and asking if I could cover the chair for December. He subsequently called to see if I could cover the chair for February due to an election, and on a further occasion because he had been elected. Then I got elected.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It worked well for the Senator.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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It worked for both of you.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It worked well for both of us. All of a sudden the chair and the vice-chair were in Leinster House. I remember at the time that a councillor in our area in my own party who was on maternity leave from work but was not on maternity leave as a councillor. While she was willing to come in she felt that her workplace would see her in the council chamber and that she was well enough to go there but not well enough for, or on leave from, her job. She was finding it difficult. She was expected to turn up at one of her positions while she had perfectly accurate and appropriate leave from her job.

I welcome that this motion also calls for paternity leave. In the 21st century very few people would imagine it would not happen anyway. If a councillor's wife or partner has a baby that councillor would need time to help with the bringing up of the baby and to help out a wife or partner in the circumstances they find themselves with the great new arrival. I was the chairman of the Fianna Fáil councillors' forum for a number of years when this did come up as an issue.

There are other issues that also need to be considered, which is not to take away from this debate. The aspect of the "officeholder" can be very confusing. The person does pay PRSI but gets absolutely nothing for it. This has been slightly changed for councillors, but it still applies to other officeholders, including Members of this House. Members pay the pay related social insurance, which is actually on all of the income, and then get absolutely nothing for it. That is daft. It is a supertax on officeholders. It came from the time when PRSI was at 0% so we would have paid nothing and got nothing. Now we pay something and get nothing.

Why are councillors the only people in the entire public service who do not get a pension? They might get a lump sum, but they do not get any pension. There are councillors from the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown Council who have been there for 29 years, 36 years, or 40 years. They have given their whole lives in public service, at a time when councillors were barely paid at all. There was nothing for them but a lump sum at the end of it all and "Thank you very much, off you go". The lowest paid public sector worker who is permanent or part-time will get a pension. It might not be a brilliant pension because it might not be a brilliant salary, but they will get something until the end of their days.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to speak to the motion please.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. We are trying to attract people into the profession. We are trying to attract members to represent society. We are looking at the terms and conditions for councillors. We need to look at the paternity and maternity leave, we need to look at all of the barriers. People are already sacrificing, potentially, part of their career. They are opting out, having to go to council meetings and having to turn up. The times of these meetings in different parts of the country may suit different people but generally they are held during the day. This means that anybody in a full-time job cannot do it. In this instance, maternity and paternity leave is absolutely something that should have been dealt with 20, 30 or 40 years ago. It is certainly the right thing to do. The Minister of State, Deputy Burke, will not be found wanting in this. I believe this House will unanimously endorse this.

Anybody who puts their name forward for public office does so because he or she wants to help and serve in the community. For anybody who is lucky enough to be elected in their area by their peers, friends and families, it is a huge honour to be a member of a local authority. Many of the Members, in fact almost all Members in this Chamber, were members of local authorities, some for many years and some for shorter periods. It is a wonderful thing to be elected and it is wonderful to be re-elected, but one must consider what they sacrifice. Many people do not realise that local authority councillors are out three and four nights per week. This can be party meetings, residents' group meetings, council meetings and meetings to discuss development plans and budgets. Some people, maybe even some Members in this House, thought that being a councillor was only going to take a couple of meetings per month. They realise that it is much more than that, and to get re-elected it is certainly much more than that.

This is the least we can do for our councillors. It is part of the journey towards making a councillor's position one that people feel they can do, and for which work they would be acknowledged. Very few people become councillors for the money because it is generally an opportunity or cost foregone. I was a member of the old Dublin regional authority. Many people left that because they could not afford to do the work anymore. They were losing too much time out of work, using up all their holidays, taking too much time off and losing time with their families. If we want people involved, and we do want and need them to be, then this is the least we can do. I thank the Minister of State for his time. I thank Senator O'Loughlin and all of the Senators who put this motion forward. I hope the issue can be resolved sooner rather than later.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator O’Loughlin. I thank the Senator for the work she has put in and the consultation she has done for this panel and for the debate. I believe that everyone found it beneficial. I hope the Minister of State did not set timelines but I hope he will be back very shortly.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for being here to listen to all of the contributions. I thank my fellow Senators for their very pertinent thoughts and suggestions. There is no doubt that the role of the councillor is very much valued in this Chamber. It is very much valued also in the communities where councillors serve. It is nearly fashionable to slate public representatives, but when it comes down to the kernel of it, when people are looking for solid advice and when people are in a situation where they need support and a pathway to help them, they will turn most definitely first of all to the local councillor. Anyone who is in that privileged position acknowledges it as a privilege and wants to do his or her very best for the person who has reached out a hand looking for help. All too often, the sacrifice is made at the family end. It is something that many of us have been through. Like the Minister of State, I was the mayor of my county, I was the chair of my town council, and I was a councillor for many years. I derived great experience from it and great humility. When a person is in such a position it is a humbling experience, and it continues to be.

We have all spoken about how under-represented women are in local government. Ireland is significantly lower than Europe in this regard, even though nowhere in Europe has reached that true equality of 50:50. We must continue to work to keep changing that. There are many different ways to do that. I congratulate the See Her Elected campaign. It was wonderful to see that work acknowledged. I have been on a number of calls with Dr. Michelle Maher and her group. They are absolutely fantastic, as are Women For Election. They really are tremendous. They got together and saw in very practical ways how they could help to support female candidates, first of all to have the courage to run, then to help them through the selection process, then to get elected, and of course to help them stay the pace, which is very important.

I acknowledge that the programme for Government is committed to increasing greater diversity and female participation. The Minister of State is certainly playing his role and I thank him for outlining the measures that are being taken. I have had extensive conversations with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, as the senior Minister. He too is very committed, as is the Taoiseach. Just prior to coming into the Chamber we were on a call with the Minister, and he completely sees the value in providing supports for councillors, particularly for females. As I said earlier, I also received a letter from the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Roderic O'Gorman, about maternity leave. As has been said, there are three different Departments involved and the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has assured his support on the matter.

I feel that with our collective supports and our collective energy we will be able to do this. It is necessary.It is wrong that it is 2021, with three weeks of the year to go, and nothing is in place. There is work to do but I have no doubt the commitment is there.

Senator Moynihan spoke about Stella Creasy, of whom I am a huge fan. I have been following that story. It is interesting that in Westminster an MP cannot breastfeed. We changed that in the last Dáil so that a woman could come in and breastfeed her child as a Member, which is only right. Separate to this, it is very important that facilities are in place in Leinster House to support mothers and fathers with family-friendly rooms and breastfeeding rooms. This is also for the staff, many of whom work late at night. This was how the family friendly forum was established. I represented the women's caucus on it. It made very strong recommendations, including on the hours. A number of Senators mentioned the unfriendly hours. Key recommendations were made on this.

With regard to the formal substitute and replacement system, there was much debate at the AILG on this. The consensus was that all female councillors respected their own democratic mandate. Their constituents had voted for them personally and it is very difficult to hand this mandate over to someone else. For some people it may work. The key word is "flexibility" and the Minister of State mentioned it. We need a suite of measures whereby women can choose what suits them at a particular point. Most definitely, maternity leave can and must be facilitated and must be prioritised. Extra administrative support would be very important.

With regard to the consultation that took place with councillors of all parties and none, all of the councillors take pride in their work and the role they play. I commend the number of men who came on the call and the number of male councillors who responded by stating we need this. This is important. Male councillors and Senators must support bringing into place maternity leave and support paternity and adoptive leave. I thank everybody for the opportunity to have the debate and the Cathaoirleach for scheduling it. We look forward to the next phase.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.