Seanad debates
Thursday, 17 May 2018
Commencement Matters
Closed-Circuit Television Systems
10:30 am
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality to the Chamber. Tá fáilte romhat, a Aire.
James Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire agus buíochas a ghabháil leis as teacht isteach.
I raise this issue of concern that came to light on Thursday, 10 May at the Fingal, Balbriggan and Swords council area meeting, which Councillor Tom O'Leary attended. A motion was discussed seeking support for a CCTV proposal for the town of Donabate, a town that does not have a Garda station. I am aware that Balbriggan would also like to install a CCTV system in certain areas of that town. The written reply to the request, which was supplied by the council officials, stated, among other things, that at the present time local authorities have been advised to defer any CCTV programmes within their administrative areas until data protection issues have been reviewed and clear guidance from the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner has issued. It stated also that it would be premature at this point to commence multi-agency discussions on a CCTV system in Donabate until a clear framework regarding the installation, operation and use of CCTV is available.
Apparently the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, has issued an instruction or recommendation to all local authorities that all CCTV camera proposals for crime prevention, anti-social behaviour monitoring and, indeed, illegal dumping monitoring and evidence gathering are not to proceed, pending clarification from the Data Protection Commissioner on the new general data protection regulation, GDPR, due to be introduced on 25 May 2018.
What are the implications of this and what impact will it have on the status of current community and commercial CCTV systems? Can they continue to operate and be used in crime detection and deterrence? I presume there is CCTV in the precincts of Dáil Éireann and in the grounds around this building, so what is the status of that under GDPR?
I congratulate the Minister and his Department for promoting a grants scheme for CCTV nationally. The recommendation of the LGMA seems to have stalled the roll-out of these existing schemes and is stymieing new applications. I am aware the Minister issued a press statement on 25 April on this. The grants scheme provides up to 60% of the capital costs of the closed circuit TV to a maximum of €40,000 and is much welcomed. There is a great appetite for it. There is €1 million available each year for community CCTV schemes.
The gardaí have reviewed these schemes and their effectiveness and have used them in almost every criminal investigation, during major public events and sporting occasions and in the investigation of road traffic accidents. They are clearly very valuable in bringing criminals to justice and in preventing crime.
It is absolutely unreasonable that the CCTV system should now be stalled or put at risk by the new GDPR as it is currently being interpreted by some parties. We are all aware of a famous former UK politician who was on the "The Pat Kenny Show" recently and who said she received a £30 sterling fine for driving in a bus lane and that the ticket was issued as a result of CCTV. This seems to be a very efficient way of upholding the law. It is also very important in regard to illegal dumping and I read only recently that the council in Athlone had a debate on this at which one of our Fine Gael councillors raised the matter and asked if Athlone would now be faced a bill for €90,000 for illegal dumping?
It is very important that we get clarity from the Data Protection Commissioner as quickly as possible. The detection of criminals and persons engaged in anti-social behaviour and in illegal dumping in our lovely countryside should not be stalled by the general data protection regulation. We need to sort this out and I would very much welcome the assistance of the Minister in clarifying this matter so that communities around the country and, indeed, in Fingal can benefit from the Minister's new scheme.
Charles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator James Reilly for raising this important issue. The Senator will be aware that the Programme for a Partnership Government commits to supporting investment in CCTV systems. In pursuance of this commitment, a new community-based CCTV grant-aid scheme was launched by my Department in April 2017 to assist groups in the setting up of community-based CCTV systems in their local areas. It is intended that the scheme will run for a period of three years with funding of €1 million being made available for each year of the three year period.
Under the scheme, which is being administered by my Department, eligible community groups can apply for grant-aid of up to 60% of the total capital cost of a proposed CCTV system, up to a maximum grant of €40,000. The statutory requirements governing the establishment of community CCTV systems generally require that the proposal must: be approved by the local joint policing committee; have the prior support of the relevant local authority, which must act as data controller - this is a long-standing statutory requirement set out in the Garda Síochána (CCTV) Order 2006, for the setting up of community CCTV systems generally; and have the authorisation of the Garda Commissioner in accordance with section 38 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005. I would emphasise that this is the legal basis for all community CCTV schemes, regardless of whether or not grant funding is sought from my Department to assist in their establishment.I wish to emphasise that this is the legal basis for all community closed-circuit television, CCTV, schemes, regardless of whether grant funding is sought from my Department to assist in their establishment. I am not aware of a recommendation from the Local Government Management Association such as that referred to by Senator Reilly. It has confirmed it has not issued an instruction to local authorities to refrain from applying to the scheme. I note all applications approved for funding under the scheme to date have been made on foot of applications made by local authorities. Furthermore, my officials continue to receive a regular flow of inquiries from interested local authorities on this scheme.
I am aware the County and City Management Association has raised a concern about the role of the data controller regarding CCTV. However, as noted, this is a long-standing requirement set out in the Garda Síochána (CCTV) Order 2006 and applies to all community CCTV schemes, regardless of how they are funded. Furthermore, in the setting out of the grant aid scheme, the Department consulted broadly, including with the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner, An Garda Síochána, the Office of the Attorney General and the Local Government Management Association. However, my officials are available to provide assistance and guidance to any interested party on the scheme and I am confident the practical application of this legal framework can be clarified for the benefit of all concerned.
I take this opportunity to confirm some 11 applications have been received to date. I understand the Department has been informed a further 14 applications will be submitted before the end of this month. Four applications under the scheme have been approved to date, with funding totalling almost €120,000. A further four applications are under active consideration. The remaining three applications have been returned to the applicants concerned to enable them to provide the information necessary to qualify for the grant aid.
Schemes funded under this grant aid scheme will supplement the existing network of CCTV systems in operation in the State, namely, the 35 Garda CCTV schemes in operation throughout the State, comprising in excess of 500 cameras as well as the 45 community-based schemes established under the previous grant aid scheme, funded by my Department between 2005 and 2013, encompassing some 367 cameras, to which An Garda Síochána has access.
I confirm I am very keen to ensure all interested groups in both rural and urban areas take advantage of the availability of this grant aid scheme. Full details of the package are available to download from my Department's website,www.justice.ieand officials in my Department are available to provide additional guidance on the application process should that be helpful. I offer that assistance to the Senator this morning. I would encourage him and all other colleagues to join me in encouraging interested groups to take advantage of the availability of the scheme.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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That is a very comprehensive answer for the Senator.
James Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his reply and for the clarity he has brought to the situation. Clearly, the information given at Fingal County Council is not accurate. My understanding is that this information is very much on the record of that council. Therefore, it will have to be corrected. I will speak to Councillor O'Leary to pursue that matter. This is a critically important scheme. One would hate to think two good initiatives, one around data protection to ensure citizens' privacy and another around CCTV which ensures their safety, could end up being conflicted.
As so often happens in this country, interpretation of European law and directives have led to a European directive being blamed for a good scheme brought forward by the Minister not being put in place. This matter will be taken up again. I thank the Minister again for his clarity.
Charles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for raising this important matter in the Seanad this morning. I reiterate that a long-standing statutory requirement for community CCTV systems is that the proposal must have, inter alia, the prior support of the appropriate and relevant local authority. That local authority must, in accordance with the law, act as data controller. That is set out in the 2006 order and it applies to all community CCTV schemes, regardless of whether it is a grant aid scheme or whether there is a grant application, in order to ensure a legally based grounding to the setting up of the scheme in the first instance.
I assure the Senator that my Department is proactively investing in the schemes and in the assistance to groups in the setting up of the schemes in their local areas. My intention is that this scheme will run for three years. Funding of €1 million is being made available each year over that period and then it will be subject to review. In that regard, my Department continues to receive a regular flow of inquiries, including from local authorities, on the matter of the scheme. Full details of the package are available to download but I stress my Department officials are available to provide additional guidance on the application process.
In thanking the Senator for raising this matter, I would encourage him and other colleagues from his local authority to join me in actively encouraging groups to take advantage of the availability of the scheme. I am sure it is an issue we will have an opportunity to debate again in the future. I very much welcome the issue raised by the Senator.