Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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I move:

That Seanad Éireann calls for a Seanad committee representative of all the political groups to be established in order to examine councillors’ terms and conditions, including PRSI class K status, pension rights and other related matters and that this committee consult representatives of both the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, and the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA.

It is welcome that Fianna Fáil has agreed to the motion to set up a committee representative of all the political groups to examine councillors' terms and conditions, including PRSI class K status, pension rights and other related matters. As all councillors have seen since 2014 in what we now call the new local government reform, their areas have become bigger, resulting in an extra workload. I ask that the committee proposed be set up as soon as possible. It is about all groups working together in order that we can achieve a good outcome.

I was a councillor for 19 years during which time I saw many changes in local authorities. In my county council, Carlow County Council, the number of members decreased from 21 to 18.I have seen the abolition of town councils. All of this has had an effect on councillors. Councillors play a big part in the community. I ask that this committee is set up as soon as possible and that we work with these councillors and all of the groups here in the Seanad to see what we can do to help meet their needs.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Is this motion formally seconded?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I agree with the motion that has been proposed and seconded by the two Senators on the far side of the House. I believe it is only right and proper that councillors' pay and terms are renegotiated. This present operation is in being since 2014 and it is only settling down after the agreements that were put in place by the former Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Phil Hogan. We can see now that it is not adequate at all to cover the expenses and the workings that councillors engage in on a daily and weekly basis.

As a former member of a local authority for 25 years and as a town councillor for more than ten years, I know quite well the workings of local authorities, both town and county council. I believe that great credit is due to anybody that puts his or her name forward to run for election to the local authorities. When the people who had the courage to put their names down are elected, it is only right and proper that they are properly remunerated. The pay of €16,500 is not quite adequate in my view to cover the cost, particularly of somebody that is a full-time councillor.

On the second day of this new Seanad, I put a motion down in relation to the K class. I was heartened by the response from the Minister, Deputy Leo Varadkar, on the matter. He outlined three areas in which he could see where improvements could be made to the K class. The K class does not suit everybody. It does not suit every councillor. It does not suit some councillors to whom the benefits of the K class probably do not apply, be they over the pension age or whatever. I believe it is only proper that the K class is addressed properly and that councillors who are young and not of pension age should get pay that entitles them to a contributory pension. That is only right. There are several instances in which the K class is being used right across the public service and the Civil Service where some benefits do accrue for some employees. It is only right and proper that councillors get the contributory pension and the benefits that go with it.

I welcome the motion before the House. The Fine Gael Party welcomes it. I believe that we have to work together whether from all parties or none to support councillors at this point in time and to make sure they receive proper pay and conditions. Let us face it, they work long hours. Working with council officials is tedious work. Trying to get something done at council level is not always easy and is very time-consuming. I believe that the proposal that is made here will help to put pressure on the various Ministers. We see now that there are at least two Ministers involved in this. The Minister for housing, planning and local government and the Minister for Social Protection are involved.

It is not a simple solution and there are a number of offices to go through. It is high time that proper conditions are put in place. There is an urgency with it. It should be addressed. We agree with the all-party motion that is proposed. We should have agreement on it and be able to go forward from here.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will share my five minutes with Senator Craughwell. I believe it was appropriate to alter the Order of Business today to raise this issue of councillors. I am delighted that there now appears to be cross-party consensus and I believe that is the way to go. It is appropriate that we work together. Across the House, we all have our own personal experiences in local government.

I wish to tee up four items that I would like us to consider.I will not go into the details now, as we will have that opportunity later. The issues are representational payments, fixed annual allowances, class K PRSI contributions and elected members' gratuity payments. I have not chosen these four off the top of my head. During the election, a commitment circulated to everyone listed these four requirements. It is important that we have a clear message, focus and target in the task ahead of us. I thank everyone for reaching a consensus. We can work together for the betterment of local councillors and local government.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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We constantly refer to the pay of councillors. There is no master-servant relationship between the council and the elected councillor. The €16,950 is a representational payment, not a salary. Why in God's name are we treating it as such? Class K PRSI is a criminal form of taking money from people for nothing. Who in this room would buy an insurance policy knowing that he or she could never cash it in, draw down on it or make an input into it? Hence, I have readied a case on this matter that will go to the High Court if we do not see a quick change.

I hope that the committee we are agreeing to establish will set a timeline. No Senator wants to face councillors in the next election and tell them that we let them down again. I want us all to work together. This is not any one individual's issue. It is for all of us. We will be damned quick to tell those who elected us that we worked on their behalf. I hope that we all get stuck into this issue.

We are withdrawing our motion on the basis that, unlike our exclusion previously, we will have representation on this group. This is not an all-party group, but one for all Senators, including Independents. I wish the committee well. I hope we will establish its membership and so on tomorrow.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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Sinn Féin agrees with the motion to set up the time-limited committee. We recognise that Putting People First and the changes in local government have not served constituents, their councillors or local authorities. Money was saved by getting rid of town councils, but it was a major mistake, not only for the towns that they served, but for the public representatives. I have just left a constituency in west Mayo that is 100 miles long and includes a number of large towns. There is no way for me to give a quality service in a constituency of that size.

Local councillors need the resources to do their jobs. It is more than a full-time job. We all bring our experiences to it. I did not realise that Senator Paddy Burke had been a councillor for 25 years before me. We all know what we put into that job when we did it.

There must be fixed-term contracts with the associated benefits. Some people believe that councillors should do the job for nothing, but one cannot do so with no resources. My main concern is that someone who is parenting alone or has responsibilities and who could bring good experience to a council chamber is forbidden from doing so because it is financially unaffordable for him or her to leave a family in a vulnerable situation and work so many hours. People are unable to take up extra employment or pay their bills at the end of the month. We need people from all cross-sections of the community in our council chambers, for example, lone parents, people who have experienced poverty, people who have run businesses, etc. These are the types of persons who make good decisions on behalf of the people.

When we treat councillors as we have been doing, we feed into the centralisation of power in the Government and county managers. The latter are running the show in local authorities. That is not right. Reserved functions are being continuously eroded. Is that any wonder when we treat councillors like we do? We must be able to encourage a cross-section of society into local government, but we can only do that by looking after the welfare and terms and conditions of our councillors. We must work together in that regard. I look forward to working with the committee, but it must be time-limited and produce results for councillors and the constituents whom they serve.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I spoke on this matter on the Order of Business. I support Fianna Fáil's proposal. Although we formed a group in the previous Seanad, we did not go through this process. It is better that we do so this time, as it will be more transparent. I am delighted that Senator Craughwell will be on board this time, as it is important that everyone is with us.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I had to lead it previously.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator was well rewarded.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Order, please.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Many delicate negotiations will have to take place.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Do not invite argument or comment, Senator. Continue.

A Senator:

It is a warm day.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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He is telling the truth.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I just counted to ten. Many delicate negotiations will have to take place, predominantly with the Minister. The previous Seanad's group met the then Minister, Deputy Kelly, with the representative associations to discuss these issues. We cannot negotiate on the floor of the House. Negotiations must be done with the respective people on both sides. We have made a serious statement on behalf of councillors in what we have done this evening. We need a timeline. Councillors' rates of pay must be addressed given the surveys showing how much work councillors do and how many meetings they must attend, including those that are not council meetings. If one attends two community-based meetings per night, one does not sign anywhere to prove one's attendance.

Many issues must be clarified, but much work has already been done and we do not need to reinvent the wheel. The 2014 legislation was reviewed and, on 6 April, the then Minister tabled a proposal as a starting point to increase the annual allowance and change it to an administrative assistance payment to reflect its purpose more correctly. We must get the current Minister to buy into what has been done in this regard. Then we need to consider councillors' rates of pay and the PRSI issue. I commend a former Minister for social protection, Dr. Michael Woods, on introducing a new class of PRSI for Protestant ministers, of whom there are 300 or 400. There are approximately 1,000 councillors. Surely we could come up with something to sort out this issue. As Senator Paddy Burke stated, it is a complicated one. I met a councillor of pension age in Leinster House last week who was still paying 4% of his councillor's allowance into a pension even though he was already getting it. That is daft.

The Local Authorities Members Association, LAMA, and the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, have met the Minister and laid out their stall which entailed something similar to Senator Boyhan's four points. The Minister is well aware of the issues. One of the associations will meet the Minister for Social Protection in Leinster House tomorrow evening to discuss the PRSI issue. We have moved things on but the all-party group, inclusive of all groups, will be beneficial. The first thing we need to do is request a meeting with the Minister. We need to have the two associations present at that meeting in order to go through the issues they want resolved, such as those read out this evening. We want to see the possible timelines for those.

We have made considerable progress on this and I am happy to support the motion, although I could not second it earlier today.

Keith Swanick (Fianna Fail)
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It is a Fianna Fáil motion.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Anyway, I am happy to support it. I hope I am not inviting any comment on that.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Tomorrow morning at 10.30 a.m.