Seanad debates

Tuesday, 5 July 2016

2:30 pm

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that was agreed earlier. I propose that No. 11, motion 6 be taken at the conclusion of No. 1. The motion will be debated without a Minister and shall be confined to groups' spokespeople who will take five minutes. They can share time if they so wish.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are those arrangements agreed?

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the Leader consulted the Whips on this matter?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I spoke to some of the party Whips after the debate but I could not get to everybody. The proposal does not call on a Minister to do anything. It is a motion of the House to establish a committee of the House. As the Senator will know from today's Order of Business, the motion deals with the terms and conditions to set up a Seanad committee to deal with the role of councillors.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to make a practical point. An announcement has been made at short notice that everybody will have an opportunity to speak. Have all the party or group Whips been informed so that they can make somebody available to make a contribution?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Notification is being circulated to them.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When was it circulated?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Once the House agrees to it.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Leader proposing that we will deal with the matter in 15 minutes?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the conclusion of the item that we are discussing now. Each group will have an opportunity to speak. To assist the Senator, it is the creation of an all-party or cross-party committee of the House. The motion, because it was taken today, has to be debated this evening. We do not need a Minister to do so and I am quite happy to allow us to have the debate. Consensus has emerged from the Order of Business. It is not a case of-----

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Am I correct that it is a Fianna Fáil amendment?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Correct, yes.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Fianna Fáil agreed to do this?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. The motion calls on us to establish a committee of the House.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed?

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Leader for coming to the House.

The problem we have now is that a number of the Senators who spoke on this matter are not available in the House to make a comment. We do not have feedback from the Whips at this stage and, therefore, do not know whether they have considered the matter. Can we defer making a decision until we hear back from the Whips?

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With respect to the Senator, we are getting excited over precious little. What we are debating is the agreement to establish a committee. It will be up to us then to put the structure in place, if that is what the House wants to do at a later date. I earnestly ask the Members to allow us to proceed. The motion was taken during the Order of Business and, as a consequence, must be taken this evening.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The proposal seems reasonable to me, if the party that put forward the amendment is happy about doing so. We are not filling the committee; we are just talking about its formation.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask the Leader to clarify which motion he is talking about.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is No. 11, motion 6 , which is in the name of Fianna Fáil Senators. We are not making a decision about the terms of reference or anything today. We are just having a discussion to fulfil the obligations under the motion being carried.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on, it is not agreed just yet.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Senator wish to make a point of order?

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the Senator's point of order?

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is not great practice, frankly. While I appreciate that it is good that we will have a debate this is short notice and the Leader has not spoken to a Whip and extended invitations. Right now, and this is ridiculous, I am texting my Whip to see if we can have somebody from my party available in 15 minutes' time to take part and contribute to the debate. We have not been phoned in advance or given advance notice. It is a basic courtesy to give notice, and that is all I am saying.

Photo of Paul DalyPaul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, it was agreed earlier that the matter would be dealt with today.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was agreed.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The amendment was agreed because I was here myself.

Photo of Paul DalyPaul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If Senators are not in the Chamber then I believe they should be in the Chamber. The amendment was agreed earlier.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a fix. It is a Fianna Fáil-Fine Gael carve-up every time.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not wish to row with Senator Mac Lochlainn. I spoke to people afterwards in the Seanad ante-chamber on moving forward. The Leader of the House is courteous and works with everybody, including Sinn Féin and its party Whip. The Senator is not being fair to me or to the way we operate with his comments.

The consequence of new politics is that the motion was carried and there is an obligation on us to take the motion this evening. Part of our difficulty was deciding whether we needed a Minister. We do not need a Minister now. There is no discourtesy intended, meant or given and for the Senator to accuse me of doing so is unfair.

The motion is on the agenda and on the Order Paper. The motion has been agreed to and as a consequence we must debate it tonight. It is a kick-off and will act as a preamble to what we do further. As I made the point on the Order of Business today, if we all want to achieve the end result, in terms of the role and conditions for councillors, then it is important that we speak with one voice rather than speak with different voices.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to make a final response.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order-----

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not debating this matter.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not debating the matter.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not having a debate.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important to point out the following matter.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will take a point of order. With respect, Senator------

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to make a point of order.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask the Senator to show respect for the Chair.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have not spoken at all until now.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will accept the Senator's point of order but urge him to have patience.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not get up to make a point of order.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not going to get into a big debate about this and I will accept the Senator's point of order. What is his point of order?

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My point of order is very simple. The motion was carried today. I was not involved in this at all.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a point of order.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is. The motion was agreed today so I knew there would be a consequence at some stage today and I knew there would be some discussion on this matter in some form in the Chamber this evening.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a point of order.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do you know what? Forget about it.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am going to take it that the Leader's arrangements are acceptable to the House. Is that agreed?

Photo of Paul DalyPaul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was agreed already unanimously.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the proposal agreed?

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, the Minister for Justice and Equality is sitting here. As we are not going to get agreement on this matter, can we continue on and debate legislation with the Minister so she can leave? We can sort out this matter at a meeting immediately afterwards, if necessary. It is unfair to have her sitting here waiting for us to solve a problem.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is unfair.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I propose that we suspend for five minutes in order to facilitate a quick chat on the matter. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 5.57 p.m. and resumed at 6.02 p.m.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are the arrangements proposed by the Leader agreed to? Agreed.