Seanad debates
Tuesday, 5 July 2016
Business of Seanad
2:30 pm
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that was agreed earlier. I propose that No. 11, motion 6 be taken at the conclusion of No. 1. The motion will be debated without a Minister and shall be confined to groups' spokespeople who will take five minutes. They can share time if they so wish.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Are those arrangements agreed?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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Has the Leader consulted the Whips on this matter?
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I spoke to some of the party Whips after the debate but I could not get to everybody. The proposal does not call on a Minister to do anything. It is a motion of the House to establish a committee of the House. As the Senator will know from today's Order of Business, the motion deals with the terms and conditions to set up a Seanad committee to deal with the role of councillors.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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I wish to make a practical point. An announcement has been made at short notice that everybody will have an opportunity to speak. Have all the party or group Whips been informed so that they can make somebody available to make a contribution?
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Notification is being circulated to them.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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When was it circulated?
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Once the House agrees to it.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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Is the Leader proposing that we will deal with the matter in 15 minutes?
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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On the conclusion of the item that we are discussing now. Each group will have an opportunity to speak. To assist the Senator, it is the creation of an all-party or cross-party committee of the House. The motion, because it was taken today, has to be debated this evening. We do not need a Minister to do so and I am quite happy to allow us to have the debate. Consensus has emerged from the Order of Business. It is not a case of-----
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Am I correct that it is a Fianna Fáil amendment?
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Has Fianna Fáil agreed to do this?
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Yes. The motion calls on us to establish a committee of the House.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank the Leader for coming to the House.
The problem we have now is that a number of the Senators who spoke on this matter are not available in the House to make a comment. We do not have feedback from the Whips at this stage and, therefore, do not know whether they have considered the matter. Can we defer making a decision until we hear back from the Whips?
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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With respect to the Senator, we are getting excited over precious little. What we are debating is the agreement to establish a committee. It will be up to us then to put the structure in place, if that is what the House wants to do at a later date. I earnestly ask the Members to allow us to proceed. The motion was taken during the Order of Business and, as a consequence, must be taken this evening.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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The proposal seems reasonable to me, if the party that put forward the amendment is happy about doing so. We are not filling the committee; we are just talking about its formation.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I ask the Leader to clarify which motion he is talking about.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It is No. 11, motion 6 , which is in the name of Fianna Fáil Senators. We are not making a decision about the terms of reference or anything today. We are just having a discussion to fulfil the obligations under the motion being carried.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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Hold on, it is not agreed just yet.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator wish to make a point of order?
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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What is the Senator's point of order?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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This is not great practice, frankly. While I appreciate that it is good that we will have a debate this is short notice and the Leader has not spoken to a Whip and extended invitations. Right now, and this is ridiculous, I am texting my Whip to see if we can have somebody from my party available in 15 minutes' time to take part and contribute to the debate. We have not been phoned in advance or given advance notice. It is a basic courtesy to give notice, and that is all I am saying.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, it was agreed earlier that the matter would be dealt with today.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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For God's sake.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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The amendment was agreed because I was here myself.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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If Senators are not in the Chamber then I believe they should be in the Chamber. The amendment was agreed earlier.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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It is a fix. It is a Fianna Fáil-Fine Gael carve-up every time.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I do not wish to row with Senator Mac Lochlainn. I spoke to people afterwards in the Seanad ante-chamber on moving forward. The Leader of the House is courteous and works with everybody, including Sinn Féin and its party Whip. The Senator is not being fair to me or to the way we operate with his comments.
The consequence of new politics is that the motion was carried and there is an obligation on us to take the motion this evening. Part of our difficulty was deciding whether we needed a Minister. We do not need a Minister now. There is no discourtesy intended, meant or given and for the Senator to accuse me of doing so is unfair.
The motion is on the agenda and on the Order Paper. The motion has been agreed to and as a consequence we must debate it tonight. It is a kick-off and will act as a preamble to what we do further. As I made the point on the Order of Business today, if we all want to achieve the end result, in terms of the role and conditions for councillors, then it is important that we speak with one voice rather than speak with different voices.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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I wish to make a final response.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order-----
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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We are not debating this matter.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I am not debating the matter.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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We are not having a debate.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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It is important to point out the following matter.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I will take a point of order. With respect, Senator------
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I wish to make a point of order.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to show respect for the Chair.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I have not spoken at all until now.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I will accept the Senator's point of order but urge him to have patience.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I did not get up to make a point of order.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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We are not going to get into a big debate about this and I will accept the Senator's point of order. What is his point of order?
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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My point of order is very simple. The motion was carried today. I was not involved in this at all.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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That is not a point of order.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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It is. The motion was agreed today so I knew there would be a consequence at some stage today and I knew there would be some discussion on this matter in some form in the Chamber this evening.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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That is not a point of order.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Do you know what? Forget about it.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I am going to take it that the Leader's arrangements are acceptable to the House. Is that agreed?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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It is not agreed.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It was agreed already unanimously.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Is the proposal agreed?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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On a point of order, the Minister for Justice and Equality is sitting here. As we are not going to get agreement on this matter, can we continue on and debate legislation with the Minister so she can leave? We can sort out this matter at a meeting immediately afterwards, if necessary. It is unfair to have her sitting here waiting for us to solve a problem.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I propose that we suspend for five minutes in order to facilitate a quick chat on the matter. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Are the arrangements proposed by the Leader agreed to? Agreed.