Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Chair for giving me the opportunity to address the House on the future of the rural transport programme. It does not seem that long since I was a Member of this House. Many Senators are passionate about this issue, as I am.

Coming from the village of Portroe, on the border of Tipperary and Clare, I know public transport is an issue. This is not just an urban issue but one that is very real for rural areas. Many people in rural areas have great difficulty accessing basic services owing to lack of access to transport. An EU survey of income and living conditions published by the Central Statistics Office in 2009 reported that 52% of households in rural Ireland had difficulties in accessing public transport compared with 11% in urban areas. Schemes such as the rural transport programme can and do transform life for those who benefit. A good public transport system is a necessary precondition for the development of a fully inclusive society in all its social and economic dimensions. Rural transport is a necessary component of such a system and can determine people's level of access to work, education and medical and social services together with access to family and friends. Essentially, it can be viewed as the cement that binds a rural community together and deals with such issues as isolation and access to social services.

The rural transport programme, of which many Senators are aware, was launched in February 2007 and it mainstreamed the former pilot rural transport initiative 2002-2006. It is being administered by Pobal on behalf of my Department. The primary objective of the RTP is to help address social exclusion in rural areas arising from unmet public transport needs and is operational in every county. Thirty six rural community transport groups throughout the country are being funded under the RTP and are maximising coverage in their operational areas, having regard to local transport service needs and the availability of resources.

Services are open to the public but older people and people with disabilities have formed the core customer base of the programme so far, with many of those living in remote and isolated rural areas. The rural transport programme was established to operate only in cases of market failure, that is, where other operators do not provide services on their own initiative. Services funded under the programme should complement and not compete with the existing public transport services provided either by CIE companies or by private transport operators. This is a core principle of the programme.

As the RTP is grounded in the principle of community self-help, the main drivers of community rural transport continue to be the local communities themselves. The bottom-up approach developed for the pilot rural transport initiative demonstrated the effectiveness of community and voluntary participation in the provision of rural transport services. The RTP continues to rely heavily on the work of local communities for its success and the level of voluntary effort and commitment involved has been acknowledged time and again, rightly so. Who knows better than local people the transport needs of their area and how best to address those needs? Government's role continues to be one of facilitator through financial and administrative support but communities themselves have the lead role.

The transport modes utilised by the individual RTP groups vary in accordance with the needs they are trying to address and can include buses, minibuses, taxis and private cars. While a small number of RTP groups provide some of their services with their own vehicles, most services are provided by private transport operators on a contract basis for individual RTP groups. These contracts are awarded following competitive tendering processes.

Funding for the pilot rural transport initiative and its successor, the rural transport programme, has increased significantly during the years, rising from €3 million in 2003 to €11 million in 2010. This funding has led to continuing increases in the level of services provided, rising from 40,000 services in 2003 to in excess of 171,000 services in 2010. The number of passenger journeys recorded on those services has also increased from 151,000 in 2003 to more than 1.4 million in 2010.

While it must be recognised that the increased levels of funding provided during the years has led to continuing increases in the level of services provided and the number of passenger journeys recorded, it must also be recognised that we now find ourselves in changed economic times. The financial resources available to Government are far more limited now. Nevertheless, €10.62 million has been allocated for the RTP in 2011 in a situation where other projects have had to be curtailed or postponed. This funding is being provided in recognition of the important role the RTP plays in combating rural isolation, particularly for the elderly, and should help to sustain on-the-ground services this year. The RTP also benefits from funding under the free travel scheme of the Department of Social Protection while some groups also benefit from local development funding from the former Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. I am aware that additional funds are generated by a number of groups from their own resources.

I cannot emphasise enough the importance of achieving greater efficiencies in the administration costs associated with implementing the RTP, both the community group costs as well as Pobal's own costs, in order that as much as possible of the programme funding is concentrated on the provision of transport services. The achievement of greater efficiencies is vital in the face of the challenging fiscal climate facing the country.

There is also a wider context to consider when assessing rural transport. For instance, many people in rural areas are not able to access public transport services when school transport or other State funded transport services may be operational in their areas. This highlights a need to change the way we think about rural transport and to explore new ideas. In essence we need to think about rural transport in a broader integrated transport context. I am very dedicated to this.

Bus Éireann is a key provider of public transport throughout the regions, including the provision of a network of local and rural bus services. Benefiting from increased Exchequer moneys in the period 2001 to 2008, the number of local and regional services increased substantially. As a result of the downturn in the economy since and a resultant drop in passenger numbers, however, Bus Éireann has had to implement some service curtailments on poorly supported routes, as well as the reorganisation and restructuring of some bus services. Nevertheless, the company is looking at innovative ways of maintaining services to the greatest extent possible in a value for money way through network planning and better utilisation of resources. It is working with other stakeholders, including the RTP, in that regard.

It is also important to acknowledge that a number of private transport operators are also providing public transport services in rural areas. Many of these provide commercial services in their own right, a number provide contracted services to Bus Éireann and, as RTP contractors, many of them also make an important contribution to the success of the rural transport programme.

A number of policy documents highlight rural transport and the role it plays in our communities. The importance of linking local and rural transport is a recurring theme in these policy documents.

The programme for Government notes the importance of transport as being "vital for rural communities as a reliable and sustainable transport service". It includes a commitment to "maintain and extend the rural transport programme with other local transport services as much as is practicable". As the Minister of State responsible for this, I am dedicated to it.

Action 14 of the smarter travel policy commits to the following: offering a regular seven day week transport service for rural communities and those in smaller urban areas; examining the potential for the expanded use of school and other publicly funded buses as a local transport bus to bring people to a range of services with, in the case of school buses, the primary emphasis continuing to be on transporting children to and from school at the necessary times and; building on the good work at local level in developing the rural transport programme to expand the network in other ways, such as the provision of demand responsive services.

Public transport accessibility is being progressed in the context of Transport Access for All, the Department's sectoral plan under the Disability Act 2005. Among other things, the plan sets out a series of policy objectives and targets for accessible public transport across all modes and it contains a significant section on the rural transport programme. An extensive review of the sectoral plan is under way with a public consultation phase due to close on 23 September next.

A number of other recently produced reports are also relevant. Among these are the rural transport network report, entitled Towards Integrated Rural Transport, the Citizens Information Board report, entitled Getting There - Transport and Access to Social Services, the Irish Rural Link-Comhar report, entitled Towards A Sustainable Rural Transport Policy, and the 2010 report on rural transport provision by the former Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.

A number of local integrated transport initiatives were undertaken between May and December 2009 in the north east and north west to explore the potential for improved synergies between existing transport providers. These initiatives involved Bus Éireann, the Health Service Executive in its capacity for providing transport to access health services, the then Department of Education and Science in respect of school transport services, Pobal in respect of rural transport programme services and the Irish Wheelchair Association. The projects were developed with a view to exploring how existing transport providers might make more effective use of their individual resources by working in closer co-operation with each other. The types of pilots included collect and connect type services, hospital feeder services, co-ordination of disability services, ticketing integration, co-ordinated information provision and journey planning, and increased synchronisation of partner systems and processes. These studies occur in a context where there is much similar work internationally, with the RTP groups able to draw on lessons learned in developing solutions that work in an Irish context.

Arising from the local integrated transport services, LITS, process it is clear that the future direction of rural transport needs to be part of wider integrated local transport services in the country. It is also clear that the delivery of a co-ordinated and integrated transport service should be further explored and developed. Work is proceeding in that regard and is a top priority of mine.

Some RTP groups are working at a local level with Bus Éireann, the HSE, FÁS, the VECs and a number of disability and voluntary organisations to improve transport synergies and the achievement of value for money. However, there is an onus on the new Government, as set out in the programme for Government, to explore all transport integration options in rural areas, including any possibilities presented by the school transport system, the HSE transport requirements, as well as rural transport services provided by Bus Éireann and private transport operators. The overall aim would be to reduce duplication and costs, while increasing efficiency and service provision. All stakeholders will have a role to play in this regard.

Like all other Government funded programmes, the rural transport programme will be considered in the context of the ongoing central review of expenditure which is endeavouring to identify savings. The programme has recently been the subject of a value for money and policy review undertaken in line with a commitment given at the launch of the programme in 2007. The review covered the period from 2002 to 2009, inclusive, and the essential elements of its terms of reference were to identify programme objectives; examine the continuing validity of these objectives and their compatibility with Government policy; define the programme outputs and identify the level, unit cost and trend of these outputs; examine the extent and effectiveness of the programme's objectives; quantify the level and trend of costs, staffing resources and income supporting the programme; evaluate the degree to which the objectives warrant the allocation of public funding on a continuing basis; and specify potential future performance indicators.

I have received a copy of the review report which, among other things, highlights the need to reduce certain costs, in particular administration costs, and emphasises the need to achieve efficiencies. Following consideration by the Government, we will publish the report and our response to the recommendations made therein, together with plans for the future of rural transport. Above all, we need to change the way we think around rural transport. There are several questions that need to be answered before this process is over and on which I would certainly take a cue from Members.

School buses often lie idle until 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. in many rural areas. Can we use them for other purposes, or interlink school transport and general transport services in order that the school bus would become part of a general public transport policy? How should the National Transport Authority be involved? While this will be a local and "bottom up" service, there is a lack of transport specific expertise in the rural transport programme. Can we use HSE transport more generally? As the organisation is primarily concerned with meeting medical needs, providing efficient transport is a secondary priority. In many cases, transport in a local area is arranged by a nurse or carer who is not someone trained to think about efficient transport. Should we be looking at developing transport hubs in our main towns? In many cases, buses of all kinds are travellling into the town centre and blocking traffic, when there may be plenty of publicly owned land adjacent to town centres or near rail lines that would also serve to meet this purpose. This might also create a greater discourse on the provision of more rural transport and public transport services in general.

Another question involves the local authorities and the role they may have in this. Rather than create new administrative structures, we can have a better transport system in rural areas that involves some liaison with local authorities, as they will best understand the transport and planning needs of rural communities and have the ability to link up with other State agencies and local authorities. The chief aim will be to take on board the lessons of the value for money review and incorporate them into a new plan that will build on and foster the current excellent community effort.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State back to the House. It is his first time to be in the House since the recess and it is nice to have him back in the hot seat.

I am sure it was only a typographical error, but I fail to see any acknowledgement of the role of the last Government in setting up the system. Even though the then Minister, former Deputy Noel Dempsey, came under much pressure last year, this vital service was retained. I am sure the Minister of State was attending meetings in his part of the country called by various organisations which mounted a co-ordinated and very successful campaign to have it retained. He has pointed to all of the services provided for people in an area in which there are no commercial services available and, without the intervention of the Government and the State, there would be no service and the people mentioned would be isolated.

The Minister of State raises a curious but valid question on school transport and the possibility of utilising some of the available capacity. His ministerial colleague, Deputy Cannon, also a former Senator, has been in charge of the school transport reorganisation and responsible for the cuts being implemented. The merger of the rural transport system and the school transport system should mean that, instead of cuts to the number of school bus routes in County Kerry, the buses that bring children to school could be used on the return journey to bring elderly people into town. Every day thousands of buses in rural areas return empty from schools. In many cases, they return to the depot in the local town. The diesel and the insurance are paid for, as is the tax on the vehicle, yet we have all these empty seats on buses every morning from Monday to Friday. When we speak about rural transport, we are talking about services in rural areas such as Portroe and Kenmare, possibly two days a week. At limited cost to the Exchequer and no cost to the school bus service, we would be able to transport thousands of people who are otherwise isolated for virtually eight or nine months of the year. Even if the school bus operator received €1 for every person brought to the nearest town, that would be money he or she would not otherwise receive. That could be paid by the passengers; therefore, there would be no cost to the State. It would just be a matter of merging the two in a more co-ordinated manner.

Perhaps the Minister of State and his ministerial colleague, Deputy Cannon, might get together and put an organised system in place. In some instances where school routes have been or are to be suspended this system might assist in maintaining school bus routes to small and rural schools. I commend the Minister of State for this joined-up thinking, which represents a step in the right direction. He also spoke about the services provided by the HSE, in respect of which we need the same co-ordination.

The Minister of State referred to administration costs which are large. There are opportunities to streamline the system and have other organisations involved. He also spoke about the councils being involved in running it, but I am not sure if that would be the right way to go. I know that councils have cut a lot of staff and are, therefore, severely understaffed in certain areas. I am not sure whether they have spare capacity as a result. However, other organisations, including community employment groups, are sometimes brought in to run rural transport services. We need to secure savings in the system rather than cutting routes. Keeping administrative support while cutting routes does not demonstrate joined up thinking and does not make sense. I do not envy the Minister of State's task in the weeks ahead because most Ministers are based in urban areas and are not aware of the value of rural transport. In 2009, when it was proposed to cut the rural transport scheme, the then Minister for Transport, Mr. Dempsey, attended a meeting at Kenmare at which people argued that Ministers from urban areas and the commuter belt did not have any concept of what the absence of rural transport services entails. They have taxis, the DART system and relatively punctual buses, whereas in areas such as south Kerry and north Tipperary the bus service, when there is one, may not run for all 12 months of the year.

I ask the Minister of State to examine the possibility of merging resources in the rural transport and school bus schemes. The Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, was able to plot routes where it would be possible for people in isolated areas to avail of a service. This would require advertising the service more widely. Existing routes and school transport services could be maintained and used by people who currently use rural transport services. While I accept this cannot be done in all areas because many buses will not return to the urban areas to which people want to travel, it is possible to expand the service at little cost to the Exchequer. Obviously, insurance and other factors would have to be considered.

I thank the Minister of State for coming before the House to outline his vision for rural transport. I hope he will work with the Minster of State, Deputy Cannon, and do battle at Cabinet level in the run-up to the budget. While I accept that there is no more low hanging fruit, that has been the case for two years. The rural transport scheme is vital and plays a valuable role in preventing rural isolation among the elderly and people living on their own. It must, therefore, be retained and Members on this side will support the Minister of State in fighting for it.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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As the Fine Gael Party spokesperson on transport, I am pleased to welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, to the Upper House. I assure Senator Daly that urban based Fine Gael and Labour Party Ministers still have their finger on the pulse and will not ignore rural Ireland, unlike members of the previous Government who lost touch with people.

The Minister of State has a very difficult task on his hands in identifying ways to deliver better services with empty coffers. I have no doubt that he is up to the task. As a rural based Senator, I am acutely conscious of the importance of good rural transport. A State subsidised rural transport service not only helps to deliver some measure of equality between rural and urban areas but fulfils a vital service in combating rural isolation, which is a particular problem for the elderly. Not every older person is in a position to run a car and those who have been widowed or never married often live alone. A local bus service is a lifeline for such people.

A study published by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul this month reported that loneliness is the biggest problem faced by older people. The report referred to the importance of rural transport in addressing the sense of isolation often felt by older people. However, it is not just for social reasons that rural transport is of importance. A local bus service is essential for performing practical tasks such as visiting a doctor when one is unwell, going to the shops and buying fuel.

The local bus service in my area, which is known as "Ring a Link", provides services to rural people in three counties - Kilkenny, Carlow and south Tipperary. The service provides buses which collect rural people at their door and bring them to their local town, village or train station. It is an important service which we must keep. In these difficult economic times I recognise that there is need for greater efficiency. One of the key factors that will make the Government different from its predecessors is that whereas the previous Government implemented swingeing, blunt cuts, the current Government approaches matters from the point of view of seeking to achieve systematic reform and efficiency. Rural transport services can undoubtedly be made more efficient.

I am conscious that the Government is providing funding to the tune of €10.62 million for the rural transport programme this year. Ring a Link is one of many services which operate under the rural transport network. I am sure not all rural transport services operate in a uniform manner and it is perhaps possible to identify best practice across all counties. A recent Central Statistics Office survey, which found that more than 50% of people in rural areas believed they did not have access to transport, shows that the rural transport network has not yet reached many people in rural Ireland, even in terms of making them aware of its existence. I acknowledge that some people in rural areas may have cultural barriers to overcome. For example, those who are used to having an independent means of transport may hesitate to begin using a bus service. This is a challenge for the rural transport network to overcome.

I note from the Ring a Link service website that its services are open to everyone in the community. In some cases a modest charge applies while in others there is no charge for the service, including in the case of those who have free transport passes. More work needs to be done to promote this aspect of the service as awareness of it would increase use of the rural transport service and, in turn, help to keep the service viable.

The Fine Gael election manifesto included a commitment, where possible, to integrate school transport, non-emergency HSE transport and the rural transport programme. This idea has been embraced by the rural transport network which last month presented a plan to the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, proposing a merger of existing public transport systems in rural areas, including the free travel pass, school transport scheme, non-ambulance transport from the Health Service Executive and other CIE systems. I welcome action 14 of the smarter travel policy and hope it will be implemented. The widespread use of taxis by agencies such as the HSE is a serious drain on limited local budgets. In a climate in which front line services must be prioritised and protected we must find efficiencies in areas such as transport.

There is an opportunity for cross-departmental co-operation on this issue. Each Department should identify how much of its budget is spent on transport and how transport services could be better integrated to serve the community. That the rural transport scheme was for many years under the Department formerly known as the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs illustrates the difficulty the new Government faces and the approach that was typical of the previous Government which appeared intent on fracturing policy areas across as many Departments as possible, making a coherent approach almost impossible.

Fine Gael has long been committed to the concept of reliable and sustainable transport services for rural communities. As the party with the largest cohort of rural based Deputies and Senators, we are well informed about the importance of rural transport provision. The programme for Government reflects Fine Gael policy in the following statement:

The rural transport network is vital for rural communities as a reliable and sustainable transport service. We will maintain and extend the Rural Transport Programme with other local transport services as much as is practicable.

As the Fine Gael Party's spokesperson on transport in the Seanad, I look forward to working with the Minister of State to achieve this goal.

While roads are not within his immediate area of responsibility, the Minister of State works closely with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar. For this reason, I take this opportunity to address the issue of road funding, particularly in a rural context. As we all know, our smaller roads were damaged to an unbelievable extent during the past two harsh winters. Potholes became craters and many rural roads simply broke apart. The position was so bad that some roads became impassable. Unfortunately, a great deal of money was required to carry out repairs and inflated repair bills arrived at a bad time for the Exchequer. Fine Gael and the Labour Party gave a commitment in the programme for Government to provide once-off funding to repair the serious damage caused to roads by severe weather. I welcome the Minister's announcement that local authorities will receive an additional €1.25 million in funding for winter maintenance. However, leaving aside the particular and unusual circumstances which arose from the snow and ice of recent years, it remains essential that we continue to invest in smaller roads. I have no doubt that the reason many of our roads were so badly affected was that they had not been properly maintained in the first instance. Instead of being resurfaced, they were patched up here and there.

As with rural transport, we must find a creative way to maintain our rural roads. "Infrastructure" is one of the buzzwords in the programme for Government. I hope rural Ireland is high on the agenda when decisions are being made on infrastructure investment.

As my party's spokesperson on transport, I am anxious to assist the Minister of State in any way I can. I am sure my colleagues feel the same way and have many useful ideas to put to him. I wish him every success in his role in the Department of Transport.

James Heffernan (Labour)
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I wish to share time with Senators Moloney and Landy.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, back to the House. He was once a Member, although he did not spend too long here. It is good to see him back in his capacity as Minister of State and I wish him the very best in that role. Coming from the predominantly rural constituency of north Tipperary, similar to my own, he is well aware of the issues and problems facing people who live in rural areas, especially that of isolation. The causes of rural isolation are varied, but much of it is down to the fact that we are becoming a lot less friendly towards our neighbours. In these recessionary times, it is good to see that people are going back to the old ways of visiting the people down the road, inquiring about them and looking after them. The rural transport initiative provides a lifeline for people such as these, especially those who are elderly, have disabilities or do not have a family to look after them. From that point of view, it has been, to an extent, a success. I will say that in recent years it has been a measured success.

I would like to bring some of the deficiencies in the rural transport initiative to the attention of the Minister of State. Every Thursday, without fail, as I would be on my way to work in Mitchelstown, I would collect an elderly woman who would be standing at the side of the road hitching a lift. She was all talk about the bus and this, that and the other. I asked her why she was not getting the bus up to town and she would say it went too late and came home too early. We are providing a service for these people, but how good that service is must be questioned. It gives people only a couple of hours to spend in town. Many of these people are elderly and have mobility problems and they need a bit of time to go around and do their business, get a bite to eat and so on before they return home. Issues such as this need ironing out.

The Minister said in his statement that funding of €10 million was allocated for the rural transport programme and that this was subject to a value for money review. When I looked briefly over a submission given by a rural transport organisation, I was shocked to see a map of Ireland showing around 36 groups that receive funding to operate the rural transport scheme in the various areas. Is this a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth? It is a good project, but I do not know whether we are delivering it in the most effective way possible.

According to the recent survey mentioned by Senator O'Neill, about 50% of people believe there is no transport in their areas, although, as Senator Daly pointed out, there are school buses, HSE buses and so on. The services are available, but are the people providing the services doing enough to advertise them and let people know they are available?

I support what the Minister of State is trying to do in delivering a more integrated service. As he said, the scheme that was operated in the north west has been a success. I urge us all to support the Minister of State in his aim of achieving a more integrated rural transport service.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State. Little did he think, a couple of years ago when he was a Member of this House, that he would be coming in here to face Senators who were looking for answers from him. I thank the Minister of State for the comprehensive report he has put before us today. I realise he has done a lot of work since he took up office and that he is very passionate about the issue. I am not going to go over all the things that people have said. We all know how valuable rural transport is. Coming from a rural area, I am fully aware of the importance of rural transport, especially to the elderly, who avail of the service to collect their pensions or go to day care centres or active retirement groups. I ask the Minister of State to do his best at all times to maintain transport for the people concerned.

I had an issue with one part of the Minister's contribution, in which he said: "In many cases, transport in a local area is arranged by a nurse or carer, who is not someone trained to think about efficient transport." I disagree with this. People who are being transported to hospital for treatment would prefer to have efficient transport. The Minister of State knows this because he kindly met a deputation from the Kerry Cancer Support Group, which runs the Kerry Cork Health Link which takes patients suffering from cancer from Kerry to Cork for treatment, sometimes every day. For those who do not know about this service, it is provided by the cancer care group and funded completely through voluntary fund-raising. It does not receive a penny from the State, yet it transports full buses of patients up and down to Cork. Cork University Hospital organises appointment times for patients from Kerry around the Kerry Cork Health Link. This is a valuable service which saves the HSE a lot of money because the executive mainly provides transport in the form of taxis. I am hoping for co-operation between the Departments of Health and Social Protection with regard to allowing people to use the free travel pass on this service. I know the Department is mulling over this at the moment and I hope it comes back with a satisfactory response.

There is another issue I would like to raise, although it may not be under the remit of the Minister of State, but it is bugging the people. It is a simple thing, namely, the price of an adult ticket with Iarnród Éireann.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I will be quick. The price of a return ticket from Kerry to Dublin or vice versa is €72, while a single ticket is €68.50. If we are serious about promoting tourism in this country and making public transport user-friendly, we need to address this issue straightaway because it is a disgrace and deters people from travelling. I know the tickets are cheaper online, but not all commuters have access to a computer when they are travelling, especially tourists.

Another issue is fines for the use of student tickets on trains. If a person is found travelling on a student ticket without a student travel pass, he or she is fined €200 plus the price of upgrading the ticket to a non-student ticket. However, the killer blow is that the ticket is confiscated from the person, which necessitates the purchase of another ticket in order that the person can return home. It is totally user unfriendly, so to speak. I ask the Minister of State to address this issue in his own time.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State as a fellow Tipperary man, albeit one who is 90 miles from my location. There is hardly any transport service in rural Ireland as far as people are aware. That is part of the difficulty. We need to get the news of services out to people who want to use them.

The use of the rural transport scheme by schools seems to be ad hoc. In my local village, pupils at the school use the scheme, while in a village three miles away, no one uses it, although it is available. The benefit of this scheme for families that can afford only one car is that the mother or father or whoever is at home does not have to worry about getting children to and from school, and the fee is nominal. This service should be made almost compulsory.

Currently, the scheme is run by Pobal. If the Minister has such figures, I ask him to state the administration costs of the services throughout the country. The area where I live is covered by the service that Senator O'Neill mentioned, which covers Carlow, Kilkenny and south Tipperary, but I am interested in the administration costs of all the services. Are we getting efficiency for the money being spent?

The biggest issue I bring to the Minister's attention is the role of local authorities in the rural transport programme. When it was rolled out in the early 2000s, many other councillors throughout the country and I argued that it should be run under the umbrella of the local authorities. We did that for several reasons. In my area, we have 26 councillors. Information about the scheme would be in every house in the constituency. People would be made aware of it, it would be properly used, and there would be some democratic accountability for the spend involved in it. It is run under the aegis of the Minister of States's Department, through Pobal, and there is no local involvement in it. I understand each Department is required to report to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government before 12 September on services that can be devolved to local government. I respectfully suggest the Minister of State put the rural transport programme on the list. It is an ideal scheme for local government to administer. In whatever fashion that was agreed, it would be ideal for local authorities to have it as part of their remit.

The Minister of State asked for suggestions or proposals. I return to what Senator Daly said about school buses. They are often left idle from 9.30 a.m. until 4 p.m., yet parent councils are fundraising to provide buses for schools to take pupils to swimming pools, hurling matches, exhibitions and museums. We need some joined-up thinking in that regard.

My final point is on another area where joined-up thinking is required. Some of the shuttle train services that Iarnród Éireann provides stop at stations that are not in the centre of the places that people want to go to, and there is no public transport there to pick them up. I will give an example. There is a service a couple of times a day from Limerick junction, better known as Tipperary station, to Waterford. Plunkett station in Waterford is a mile and a half from the city centre and there is no transport link. People have to walk across the bridge and into the city. If it is a wet day, they will not do it again. We need some joined-up thinking.

I thank the Minister of State for coming in and I look forward to the outcome of this debate.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Ba bhreá liom an deis a ghabháil chun fáilte a chur roimh an Aire agus a rá cé chomh tábhachtach is atá an cheist seo. Is minic agus muid ag caint faoi na fadhbanna atá againn sa tír seo go leagtar an bhéim ar chursaí na gcathracha mar go mbíonn daoine ag iarraidh airgead a sparáil. Is minic a léirítear dí-mheas ar na riachtanaisí faoin tuath. Tá an-áthas orm, mar sin, gur luaigh an t-Aire, ag tús a oráide agus é ag caint faoi chúraí taistil poiblí, nach ceist na gcathracha nó ceist a bhaineann le bailtí é seo amháin ach ceist atá fíor thábhachtach ó thaobh na tuaithe de.

I am glad the Minister of State began by stressing that public transport is not just an urban issue but a real one for rural areas as well. I have had considerable contact with people who have made the point that the rural transport programme has made a significant difference. Because of its flexibility, arrangements can be made to meet needs in particular situations.

I take the opportunity to draw the Minister's attention to the pre-budget submission that Irish Rural Link made recently, in which it points out that a key benefit of the rural transport programme is its role in combating rural isolation. When we consider the issue, we should focus on the isolation felt by older people in rural areas, who are less able to rely on local family networks and support systems. That is precisely where the value of the rural transport programme can be seen. It relies on and encourages community involvement, and community groups play a key role in the delivery and affordability of the programme because it has that co-operative dimension.

I understand the rural transport programme accounts for about 1.5 million passengers annually, and it achieves that while functioning with less than 1.2 per cent of the total annual spend on public transport. There is a strong case to be made for not just continuing it but expanding it. If we are serious about it, we should consider Irish Rural Link's recommendation that rural transport services across the board, including Bus Éireann and school transport services, should be more integrated. In that way, we can hope for a better reputation for rural transport and also for more efficiency. Obviously, one is linked to the other.

The rapid increase in urbanisation and the failure of decentralisation should not deter us from supporting and encouraging rural life. I know that the Minister of State is sympathetic to this, given where he comes from. Outside of the obvious welfare issues involved, again focusing on our older citizens, it makes little sense to pin so much of our future economic aspirations on agrifood if we ignore the communities where the sector flourishes. It is an area where we often hear phrases such as "joined-up thinking", but they cannot be avoided when one is considering an issue such as this.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil sé deacair ar an Rialtas ag an am áirithe seo agus go bhfuil ceisteanna deacra le freagairt maidir le caiteachas airgid. Ach chomh fada is a bhaineann sé le leas an phobail caithfimid díriú isteach agus an clár seo faoi thaistil tuaithe a lárnú agus a bhuanú.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Much of what I intended to say has been said. I support what three or four of my colleagues said about the time between 9.30 a.m. and 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. I take my grandchildren to a secondary school in a rural area and I see what happens there. The four or five buses that go to the school - full, thankfully - do a good job, but I would like to see greater efficiency in the use of school buses and there is an opportunity in that regard. The best motorway in the country goes through the rural part of my constituency, and through Meath and Dublin. There are some issues involving heavy goods vehicles that I intended to take up with the Minister today because they affect rural transport. An example is what happens when a heavy goods vehicle joins a motorway in a rural area where buses are going to schools. There can be problems when vehicles cannot make room because they are not allowed to move over to the outer lane. That is a safety issue, but perhaps we should take it up in another forum.

On the point about making better use of school buses, we also need to consider the drivers. In some cases, bus owners do the driving themselves, but in most cases seven or eight drivers are employed and they are tied up between 9.30 a.m. and 3 p.m or 4 p.m. so they could not do anything else. We should consider the bus routes between schools and towns to determine what we can do for rural, and in many instances isolated, populations that do not have transport or any other way of going into town. The Minister of State is aware that some of the less economic routes have been withdrawn by Bus Éireann and private providers. One cannot expect them to provide such routes, but we could make better use of the return journeys of school transport services.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Fearaim céad fáilte roimh an Aire. Is iontach an rud go bhfuil na comhráití seo ar siúl inniu faoin ábhar seo mar is ábhar an-tábhachtach é. Mar dhuine a chaith roinnt blianta ar bhord Bealach, an clár taistil tuaithe i gConamara, tá tuiscint agam ar na ceisteanna seo. Tá siad an-tábhachtach agus tá sé fíor-thábachtach go mbéadh muid á bplé i gcomhthéacs níos leithne.

I welcome the Minister of State. As someone who has spent a number of years on the board of Bealach, the Connemara rural transport initiative, I understand many of the issues he has raised and agree with much of what he is trying to do. However, this debate must be taken in a broader context, as it has to do with accessibility to areas rather than just the rural transport programme.

In recent years there have been serious cutbacks in, for example, the HSE's transport system for bringing people to hospitals. School transport services were cut recently. As Senator Brennan alluded, Bus Éireann's services in rural areas are also being cut. I do not have sympathy for Bus Éireann, which used a model that was unfair to people living in rural areas to reduce their services based on what the company would call economic arguments. As Senator Moloney mentioned, the cost of travelling on those services was sometimes prohibitive. Neither did the timetabling of the services suit people who wanted to use them. Sinn Féin will fight against any cutbacks in rural transport services provided by Bus Éireann or others, since transport is just as much the right of people in a rural area as it is of people in an urban area, in that people have a right to get around the area.

The broader context incorporates connectivity. When the board of Bealach tried to discuss a timetabling change with Bus Éireann, we always ran into a brick wall. In many cases, ministerial permission was required to change a timetable. For example, city services experienced this problem. Trying to get from my area of Carna in the back of Connemara to Dublin can be a nightmare. I experienced it two days ago when I tried to travel from Leinster House to Letterfrack. I was fine until I hit Galway city, but trying to get through the city and the rest of the journey was a nightmare. Successive Governments have failed to create a public transport system with sufficient connectivity to allow people to enter and leave rural areas, probably because the system is scattered across various agencies and Departments. I welcome the Government's initiative to try to connect some of these services.

I am disappointed the Government did not take this opportunity to increase funding for rural transport. It is imperative that services be increased. While I was on the board of Bealach, we were lean, mean and very keen. The Minister of State referred to the cost of servicing the scheme. If one is considering cutting back and making efficiencies, I hope this is not done at local level which was efficient and tight in its administration. I am unsure whether there is fat further up the system. If there is, I am sure the Minister of State will address it.

Bealach was always inundated with applications and we never had enough money to service every group that required it. I am not just referring to older people, but also to young people attending sports events and youth clubs and to people who were travelling between villages and trying to connect with other services.

The last cut saw a reduction from €11 million to €10.62 million. The difference equates to half the pension recently paid to a senior civil servant. How many could have been serviced through the use of that money or an even larger sum? We are told repeatedly that we must make cutbacks and tighten our belts. The Government is tightening its belt in some respects but not in others, and it is unfair that this money is not being spent on rural transport and the like.

When we tried to integrate local services, we encountered a number of issues that have not been mentioned. Buses travel the same routes at the same times servicing various people attending disability services, school, work and so on, but insurance and child protection become issues when one tries to get people to travel on the same buses. When we tried to integrate services and get people to travel on the same buses, we found that safety issues arose where people with disability travel with members of the general public. A minder would also be required to travel with the disabled person. There are related insurance issues. I am sure this matter needs to be raised with the industry. I agree with the Minister of State that if a number of buses travel on the same route, we should try to integrate the services to avoid duplication.

We should consider the Scottish example. The Royal Mail married its transport and postal system so that postmen in many of Scotland's rural areas deliver the post and provide bus services. Since we should shore up our postal service, especially in rural areas, considering a Scottish-style service might help.

Investment in infrastructure is an issue. A part of our problem is the time required to go from A to B in rural areas. In Connemara, for example, the N59 needs to be upgraded. We also need a new road from Galway city to Screeb if people are to get from rural areas into the city and onwards. We need the outer bypass of Galway city so that people can travel beyond. I am sure similar issues exist in every rural area. Sadly, we do not have this type of connectivity.

Other elements are important. For example, the needs of the people with a disability was an issue raised recently with me. In many cases, Bus Éireann must leave people on the side of the road, for example, the Galway-Carraroe road, because it does not have wheelchair accessible buses available. People in rural south Connemara who are disabled do not have access to Bus Éireann's buses because we do not have footpaths. This is a serious issue for them.

We must connect with the offshore islands. For example, a disabled person cannot travel from Inishmore. Under the previous Minister, approximately €10 million was spent on installing pontoons at Rossaveel, but they were never disability-proofed to ensure wheelchair access. That access can only be provided at certain times. Much needs to be considered. The boat services that connect the islands with bus services and, subsequently, rail services must be examined. Members of the Minister of State's party in Galway would be progressive in terms of the Gluas initiative, that is, a Luas system for Galway city to take cars off the roads. We support this initiative, but such connectivity is required across all Departments.

We must also consider the traffic chaos in Galway city. Last week, the poor members of Fine Gael suffered that chaos. They will appreciate how difficult it is to get through the city when money is not being invested in necessary infrastructure.

Mar fhocal scoir, bheinn ag rá go bhfuilimid ag tacú, i bprionsabal, go mbéadh comh-órdú idir na seirbhísí ar fad. Ach caithfimid breathnú ar an rud seo go huilíoch. Caithfimid breathnú ar na seirbhísí bus agus traenach. Níor luamar West on Track, an ráille traenach nó an gá atá le seirbhís traenach ón iar-thuaisceart go dtí an iar-dheisceart agus le dé-bhealach - nó dual carriageway - a dhul ón iar-thuaisceart go dtí an iar-dheisceart. Ní gá go mbéadh gach rud ag teacht amach as Baile Átha Cliath amháin. Ba cheart go mbéadh muid in ann taisteal suas agus aníos chósta an iarthair chomh tapaidh céanna agus chomh héifeachtach céanna. All these services connect with each other. We need the Government to take all of this on board. Despite our being in times of fiscal restraint, rural transport should not be cut back. Rather I believe more money should be put into it.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State and wish him well in his new role. He is off to a good start.

It is encouraging to note that rural transport is given particular significance in the programme for Government. I served on the board of Galway Rural Development which operates a number of rural transport schemes throughout south-east and north Galway. Those schemes are particularly useful and valuable to communities. They operate in the peripheral parts of the county and are of particular benefit and use to the elderly given that they operate mainly on Fridays. I would be concerned if any attempt were made to curtail any of these schemes.

I wish to raise with the Minister of State the matter of a train service in another rural community. The Minister of State may have had some discussions on this matter with representatives of the people of Woodlawn. While the westbound service in the morning is good, the eastbound service has been seriously eroded during the years. Currently, the only eastbound train servicing Woodlawn on weekdays is at 5.35 a.m. There is then a ten hour gap before the next train. This situation is ludicrous as all Galway-Dublin trains have to pass through Woodlawn. While many of the trains actually stop at Woodlawn and wait for the westbound train to pass, frustratingly, they cannot accommodate passengers at Woodlawn.

Iarnród Éireann has referred to the fact that Woodlawn is a small rural community, but it has ignored the fact that it services a large hinterland. The infrastructure is in place and there is an opportunity to provide a better service. I am aware issues such as scheduling are involved. A couple of years ago a significant investment was made at the railway station in Ballinasloe, at which point it was intended the trains would cross. However, for some reason that particular facility is not operational and the trains are crossing at Woodlawn, which has only one platform and is where the difficulty arises. As we are discussing rural transport, I ask that the Minister of State take this issue on board and have further discussions in that regard with Iarnród Éireann. It is hoped that when the next round of timetabling takes place, it would be possible to schedule an extra stop at Woodlawn. Most people who board the train at Woodlawn would be going to Dublin for hospital appointments, and leaving at 5.35 a.m. is too early. We need a service somewhere between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m.

I appreciate the opportunity to raise that issue with the Minister of State. I support the retention and development of rural transport services generally.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, who has returned to us via the European Parliament.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I went on a detour for a couple of years.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is very welcome back.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Thank you.

I thank Senators for their comments and questions. When previously a Member of this House, I told myself that if I ever got the opportunity to hold the position of Minister or Minister of State, I would always endeavour to answer as directly and fairly as possible any questions put to me. I will endeavour to do so today.

I will try to respond to questions in the order they were asked. I appreciate Senator Daly's comments of support in regard to the changes needed in the integrated approach. I am well aware of his hinterland given my other half comes from that direction. I support the need to retain services. Services will be retained. I am dedicated to the provision of rural services; it is in my DNA. I am working closely with the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, on the matter of school transport. We are looking at better ways of integrating services into the future to ensure the provision of better and extra services.

My address at the national conference of the RTPI this year was my first public address as Minister of State. I told the RTPI I would be supportive of its requirements but that it had to come with me in regard to introducing the various changes that needed to be made in relation to future services. There is, in terms of service provision throughout the country, no such thing as best practice. One size does not fit all. What might work in Tipperary might not work in Donegal or Galway. While in some areas there are train and bus services, there are none in others. What might work in one part of the county in which Senator Landy lives might not necessarily work in the other part where I live. We are both from the same county. What is needed is customisation and a plan to co-ordinate that customisation. That is my role.

Senator O'Neill referred to Ring a Link, of which I am very supportive. I have met it and it has done good work. As the Senator stated, we face challenges in terms of the comprehensive spending review. This area, like every other, will have to come through that process. I am confident we will retain funding in respect of rural transport services. However, it is not appropriate for me to predetermine the outcome of that process. I am confident the Government will look favourably upon rural services and the requirement for same. There are enough people in Government from rural Ireland who are well aware of the requirements of rural Ireland. Some of them are members of the Cabinet and others hold Minister of State portfolios.

The issue of roads was also raised. With the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, other colleagues and I are considering the introduction of a winter plan for the forthcoming winter. While funding in terms of roads is important, we must also be organised. We want to ensure we are in a position to meet some of the problems that may arise from what is predicted to be a harsh winter. Senator Heffernan told us about an elderly lady to whom he regularly gave a lift to Mitchelstown. That is an example of what needs to be addressed. There are possibly buses that are not, from a scheduling point of view, meeting their requirement. It is also possible that other services operated by other transport providers may be going the same route. The road to Mitchelstown is a fairly direct route. The issue will need to be addressed to meet the lady's requirements.

I agree with the comments in regard to comprehensive coverage. I looked at the same map and the manner in which the services are provided. We will need to examine administration costs. There are different volumes of administration costs depending on the area one is looking at. On Senator Landy's question, the costs vary depending on the scheme. Some are high and others are, to be fair, low. I argue that those for which costs are low also tend to be the ones that are efficient. All of this will have to be examined.

Senator Moloney quoted from my contribution. I was referring in that regard to the fact that the focus should be on what one did well and that one should be facilitated by others to ensure there could be better transport services. That is where I was coming from.

Great reference was made to the Kerry cancer transport service and I have met its representatives. They provide a phenomenal service and, overall, there is a phenomenal rural transport service in County Kerry. I hope to meet its participants in the coming weeks.

The issue of ticket prices was raised and I will take it up with Iarnród Éireann. I have spoken on the topic before, but I will take it up again, especially with regard to variations in single and return tickets. I take on board the comments relating to student fares and will speak to representatives of Iarnród Éireann in that regard.

Senator Landy made an important comment with regard to the publicity surrounding many services and I have referred to the issue. There should be greater co-ordination of services and there should be greater co-ordination in rural areas in publicising what is available. I know from my own experience that many people were not aware of services until I brought them to their attention. We must address the issue as public transport must become a greater option in people's lives. I made similar comments to Senator Landy about local authorities, which have a greater role to play. I have taken the issue on board. The future of the rural transport programme and the provision of one-off services, school transport, match services and other outings could be brought into the debate.

Senator Mullen mentioned Irish Rural Link, an organisation of which I am very supportive. I take on board and welcome the Senator's comments on school transport.

Senator Brennan commented, like all Senators, on the school bus system. That is welcome. If the sample of opinion in the House is anything to go by, there is a mood for change in the manner in which the system is managed with regard to a co-ordinated role with other services within my remit. I am encouraged by this.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh gave a very reasonable contribution until he argued that more money should be put into the process. I genuinely do not know where the Senator believes the money can come from in this and other areas given our current position, which came about as a result of the decisions of previous Administrations. The Senator's party voted for the biggest of these decisions. I accept the Senator's detailed knowledge of his own area and, clearly, he has given much thought to it. He had some reasonable suggestions. He spoke about accessibility. If there are specific areas concerning accessibility to any public transport service, Senators should not hesitate to bring them to my attention. I will certainly act if they are a cause for concern.

I agree that insurance must be considered with regard to any changes and the issue must be tackled. I made a wry grin when the Senator referred to the example of change in Scotland where the postman also drives a bus. It would take much time to get the post around rural Ireland at that rate.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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It works and it is a very efficient service.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I do not doubt it. I can imagine in my own area that man would be on the one run for a week. I have met the people in Woodlawn and will raise the highlighted issue. I understand exactly where they are coming from. There is an issue relating to timetabling and I will revert on the issue. Changing a timetable takes some time and there is a domino effect with consequences along the line.

When we speak about the future of rural transport, I ask that Senators consider it not in the context of what existed but where we must go in the future. I hope there will be a good amount of funding to supply services and the House will work towards providing an integrated transport policy for this country. That will require a change in thinking and how we use school and health service transport. It will also require the help of voluntary groups, Bus Éireann, Iarnród Éireann, taxis and hackneys in rural areas. The programme will provide services where there is a requirement. It will provide the cement to bring together many services, although one size will not fit all. There will be administration costs and some interconnectivity with local authorities in order that we can have proper planning. Transport hubs will be based in rural areas so people can enjoy public transport with better knowledge.

That is the future of rural transport. It is greater than the rural transport programme, although I am supportive of that initiative. This is about a different vision and achieving more with less administration and greater integration. That is where I hope to go. Much work has been done but I appreciate the Senators' comments. I will take all of them on board and hope the Senators will support my plans and that of the Government in providing better services for rural Ireland.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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On behalf of the House, I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive response and addressing the issues raised. I wish him well.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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On a point of order, is the Seanad adjourning now?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I understand we will move to consider the Insurance Bill. There was no break proposed on the Order of Business.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Could I propose an amendment to the Order of Business?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not within our remit to change it.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I thought I could try in any case.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Will the Acting Chairman clarify the procedure?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should be along presently. If he is delayed, we can suspend the sitting, with the permission of the Leader of the House.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Minister will be here in a minute or two.